Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of synagogues named Temple Israel

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was No Consensus It certainly appears that this article meets the Set Index Criteria. That it duplicates to some extent a DAB page should not concern us. A strengthened lead would improve this list signficantly. Mike Cline (talk) 12:44, 13 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

List of synagogues named Temple Israel[edit]

List of synagogues named Temple Israel (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log • AfD statistics)
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I've been having a lengthy discussion with another editor about this article, who says it is a "Set Index Article" (WP:SIA). I have argued that it should be deleted because:

  1. It is not a Set Index Article because there is no "specific type" of synagogue that is a "Temple Israel" synagogue.
  2. The shared name is a trivial coincidence, rather than a fundamental characteristic.
  3. It violates WP:NOTDIR.
  4. Wikipedia is better (and more typically) served by the disambiguation page Temple Israel.

The other editor has argued that this is indeed a Set Index Article, and should, in fact, replace the current disambiguation page at Temple Israel. I'm happy to work on improving this article (and future similar ones), but not if AfD determines that they don't belong on Wikipedia to begin with. Jayjg (talk) 04:07, 4 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • weak keep. Having a list and a disambig for apparently the same purpose looks like a problem in need of being fixed. But it's not as bad as it seems: the list can always go beyond bare disambiguation and explore the places that don't have standalone articles, as well as things common to all (starting with Why Temple? wasn't the Temple destroyed forever, milleniums ago? - right, I know it's a Reform specialty that's frowned upon by others, but it needs to be explained in more detail than is present in Temple#Jewish_synagogues_and_temples). East of Borschov 05:16, 4 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Actually, even if this article is kept, it won't have a discussion on the use of the term "Temple" in the Reform movement, since that's not really specific to Temple Israel, or Temple Sinai, or any of the many other synagogues called "Temple something". Jayjg (talk) 19:49, 4 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Move to a disambiguation page Temple Israel. Dr. Blofeld White cat 10:47, 4 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
What do you mean? Keep this SIA article but move it to the location Temple Israel and replace the dab that is there now? That is exactly what i propose, in my note below. Just not sure if that is what you mean. --doncram (talk) 05:06, 5 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep: This looks like a classic Set Index Article.It's a list article whose entries contain some useful information, but would not individually stand alone: the entries by themselves would be sub-stubs. Converting to a dab page would not be helpful to our readers: it would disambiguate to a set of sub-stubs. Therefore, I suggest leaving this page as-is. —hike395 (talk) 16:39, 4 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Note: the Set Index Article criteria is fulfilled because it is a set of synagogues. —hike395 (talk) 16:40, 4 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Are you arguing that any combination of synagogue articles can be a "Set Index Article"? How about Synagogues whose name begins with "T"? Jayjg (talk) 19:49, 4 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No: All of the entries have the same name ("Temple Israel") and belong to the same set ("synagogues"). This matches the SIA criteria at WP:D. If you wish to start a List of synagogues whose name begins with T, that is outside the scope of the SIA criteria. —hike395 (talk) 04:58, 5 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Later: I was mistaken in thinking that the linked article are sub-stubs. I think it boils down to whether this article makes sense as a stand-alone list (of which an SIA is a subtype). Looking at other lists in WP, I believe it has the potential to become a good stand-alone list, and shouldn't be deleted. The current state of the list is somewhat sad: I hope that editors decide to develop the list further. —hike395 (talk) 05:57, 5 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It's a list of notable places named that, not a list of all places named that. You have to understand the implicit "notable" in the title, as for any other list-article of places. So it covers places that have Wikipedia articles, and other places that are adequately supported by sources as being notable. In fact it can help prevent the proliferation of separate articles on the marginally notable ones, by allowing for them to be covered in this list article instead of by separate articles, and be subject to good editing by Jayjg or other concerned editors maintaining the list-article going forward. --doncram (talk) 19:20, 5 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, exactly. Only for Signal Mountain there needs to be a separate dab page because of the existence of a notable town or two that are covered in the dab page, but which are not of the same type of thing as the mountains covered only in the SIA. So there, a separate dab page is needed. For this case, all the items are of the same type, and a separate dab page is not needed and can be dropped (perhaps by moving to "Temple Israel (disambiguation)" and then redirected, in order to save its edit history), making way for the SIA to be moved to the most natural name, "Temple Israel". --doncram (talk) 20:20, 5 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
To be honest, I'm not sure why List of peaks named Signal Mountain is an SIA either, since the peaks have nothing in common besides a name. USS Enterprise makes a little more sense, since it's a more or less about two series of related ships - that is, each set of U.S.S. Enterprises (in one case fictional) were built by the same government, and inherited the name from the previous. Jayjg (talk) 05:32, 11 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with you Jayjg, but since the guideline cites Signal Mountain as an example, I think this should be kept as an analogous SIA. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 05:39, 11 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. This is a valid set-index-article that has existed for several years, fully compliant with wp:SIA and obviating need for a separate disambiguation page. It could/should be moved back to "Temple Israel" where it long existed, and replace the duplicative disambiguation page there now. The only reason the SIA is at the current name is the deletion-nominator recently wrote over "Temple Israel" to create a different article, then some confusion ensued, and that article was eventually moved to Temple Israel (Tulsa, Oklahoma), and the dab page was creatged. Upon my objections the SIA was recreated but now at the name "List of synagogues named Temple Israel" and its edit history was restored (by Jayjg, thanks). I believe there is no need to have a separate disambiguation article as every entry in the dab appears in this set-index-article. This example is also under discussion at Wikipedia talk:Disambiguation#Set index articles - what is "of a specific type"? and at Talk:Temple Israel#Requested move 2 and disambiguation vs. set-index-article. I don't get what the deletion-nominator actually wants. In the latter Talk page discussion Jayjg expresses interest in developing this SIA more fully, and developing more SIAs like this one, if this will not be deleted. This AFD is a test of the community of editors, and in that sense not a real proposal. Or maybe deletion is what Jayjg now wants, i am not sure. But, the SIA remains as always a valid list-article. --doncram (talk) 05:03, 5 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per nominator, because the name "Temple Israel" is almost a generic sort of name for many synagogues and such a list is pointless and the worst of WP:LISTCRUFT. Like creating a list List of synagogues named Temple Judea, or List of synagogues named Temple Shalom, or List of synagogues named Beth David or some such etc etc etc. All quite pointless. IZAK (talk) 03:27, 6 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete as a duplicate of Temple Israel. Both of them have the sole reason of disambiguation. Tavix |  Talk  23:54, 6 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Umm, it's not exactly a duplicate. This preceded the current dab page set up now at Temple Israel, and this includes more entries than those listed on the Temple Israel dab page (because this covers some notable places not having wikipedia articles). Also this is different than a dab page; this can include sources and descriptions and pictures and so on. If/when it is verified that this set-index-article is okay, then I do happen to agree it will be appropriate to redirect the dab page to here or to move this SIA to that name. The question is, i guess, is this a valid set-index-article topic. --doncram (talk) 01:13, 12 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Umm, you can't merge in sources and descriptions and pictures: do you mean all those should be deleted? And you can't add the items in the SIA which do not have wikipedia articles, to the dab page. There is nothing you can add to the disambiguation page, practically, by disambiguation page rules (wp:MOSDAB). The AFD was opened by its nominator who would actually like to add more sources and descriptive material and pictures to this SIA page, as long as it is agreed that the SIA page is valid by Wikipedia guidelines. --doncram (talk) 03:14, 13 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well, to be honest, the article didn't actually have any pictures in it, until you added one, right after making that comment here. And I'm not sure I'd add pictures to this article even if it is kept. Jayjg (talk) 04:09, 13 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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