Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of songs recorded by Udit Narayan

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Mark Arsten (talk) 11:55, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

List of songs recorded by Udit Narayan[edit]

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I am also nominating the following related pages:

Per a similar AfD that just closed as delete and two others, these lists are of non-notable items. This fails WP:SAL (Every entry meets the notability criteria for its own non-redirect article in the English Wikipedia), WP:NOTDIR and every entry fails WP:NSONG. Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 08:00, 18 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: All article creators weren't informed until now about this AfD. §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {T/C} 10:54, 18 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- So what? Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 13:41, 18 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Nothing! I am just a fool who likes to do all the non-sense stuff. §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {T/C} 13:53, 18 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Keep and improve I don't know about the others, but Lata Mangeshkar and Kishore Kumar are some of Asia's most famous singers and are extremely notable in India and a comprehensive list of their songs by year, while ambitious, is certainly well within guidelines. The Mangeshkar list I started is utter crap at the moment, agreed, I saved it from a user who was about to delete it in their user space. It needs full expansion not deletion. A tabled list with information isn't a directory, and many of the songs are on the soundtrack to many major films in Hindi cinematic history and are certainly notable to Indians.♦ Dr. Blofeld 11:16, 18 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- The films the songs appeared in may well be notable, but these lists and the songs contained within them, are not. Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 13:43, 18 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think you understand songs in Bollywood films in Indian culture. Some of the songs have received more acclaim than the films themselves, and certain films are associated with given songs. Given that Bollywood films are generally essentially musically driven and a big thing is made about the songs in them, songs are generally more important in Bollywood cinema than any other. I agree that the lists look like trash which should be obliterated asap, but with Lata and Kumar at least, I think you'd be surprised how decent a list which could be produced for their songs, using a lot of reliable sources, and how many site visitors would find such lists useful.. That Kumar's list of songs got 50,000 hits already this month illustrates that a lot of people are coming here looking for a general overview and information on them. Lata has had even entire books written about her songs. An extract from a book "Lata Mangeshkar has dominated playback singing in Indian films for over fifty years, outlasting generations of actors. Her piping voice has brought to life the songs of countless young screen heroines." A tabled list of the more notable songs in chrono order with numerous book and newspaper sources is perfectly within guidelines and arguably very valuable to anybody researching Hindi cinema. ♦ Dr. Blofeld 16:24, 18 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: I first created the article List of songs recorded by Shreya Ghoshal and it achieved brilliant success in terms of popularity among the music related articles. But due to its length, it was advised to fragment the article. That is why, I created two separate aricles: List of Bengali songs recorded by Shreya Ghoshal and List of Telugu songs recorded by Shreya Ghoshal. If any problem arises, then I can again move the information in the two articles back to their source page. But I fail to understand why such problems arise. Such articles attract a large viewership. And moreover, Shreya Ghoshal is one of the leading playback singers in Bollywood. People would like to see her contribution to Indian music. As a whole, I do not support deletion of the two articles. Bubaikumar (talk) 11:40, 18 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Kumar's list has had 50,000 hits in the past month. Yagnik's 23,000.♦ Dr. Blofeld 11:46, 18 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Speedy keep. This AFD is based on a misapprehension, that these are stand-alone lists (that is, lists without a parent page, such as Deaths in 2011 or List of shipwrecks), where there is indeed a policy that all entries need to be themselves notable (to prevent people flooding lists with cruft). As a list of works is a sub-page to the article on the performers, the applicable policy is WP:WORKS, which explicitly states that "The individual items in the list do not have to be sufficiently notable to merit their own separate articles. Complete lists of works, appropriately sourced to reliable scholarship (WP:V), are encouraged". – iridescent 12:29, 18 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- How do these WP:LISTCRUFT directories meet WP:GNG? They don't. Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 13:42, 18 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Albums and songs-related deletion discussions. Northamerica1000^(talk) 13:10, 18 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of India-related deletion discussions. Northamerica1000^(talk) 13:11, 18 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. Northamerica1000^(talk) 13:12, 18 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Delete--This is a list of no notable items. This fails WP:SAL. Delete all this kind of article, except article split due to WP:TOOLONG---- Jayanta Nath ^{(Talk|Contrb)} 15:31, 18 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Can you please explain how is List of Bengali songs recorded by Shreya Ghoshal and List of Telugu songs recorded by Shreya Ghoshal fails WP:SAL and WP:TOOLONG. The other articles needs to follow the convention of the Shreya Ghoshal article and we need articles for individual songs of the Shreya Ghoshal article. SL 7968 17:12, 18 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hi please read WP:SAL Every entry meets the notability criteria for its own non-redirect article in the English Wikipedia, means each song should be notable entry. Any one can add this songs entry in Shreya Ghoshal article. but remember wikipedia is WP:NOTCATALOG--- Jayanta Nath ^{(Talk|Contrb)} 07:12, 19 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Please read the below comments why the individual songs are notable. And again the WP:SAL is not a policy. The two lists does not look like catalog at all. SL 7968 08:02, 19 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

No notability has been established (yet) for any of those songs. Jayanta Nath is quite correct here. Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 08:18, 19 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yes you are correct that not all songs meet notability criteria. But that is not a problem. WP:SAL lists as one of the criteria "Every entry in the list fails the notability criteria. These lists are created explicitly because most or all of the listed items do not warrant independent articles". SO, most songs not being notable is not a reason for deleting the list. --Dwaipayan (talk) 20:00, 20 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Speedy Keep All Per User:Dr. Blofeld, User:Bubaikumar and User:Iridescent. The nominator should not have nominated these articles for deletion in first place since he/she shows complete unawareness of Bollywood songs. The Shreya Ghoshal article here is the most well sourced (thanks to User:Bubaikumar) and we need individual articles for MAXIMUM of them. This AFD is another waste of the community's time. SL7968 17:03, 18 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Please assume good faith. None of these lists show individual elements of notability in their own right. All the Shreya Ghoshal article proves is that the songs exist, not that they are notable. WP:NOTINHERITED clealy applies here. Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 17:18, 18 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Can you please explain me why do you think they are not notable? From the first AFD you have said these are WP:LISTCRUFT directories of non notable items but never provided a valid rationale why they are non notable;. So hear my rationale why they are notable songs in their own right:

If an artist has won National Film Award for Best Male Playback Singer or Best Female Playback Singer or Best Lyrics or Best Choreography then the individual songs for which they won it are defacto notable. That said there are other awards like IIFA, FILMFARE for which also the individual songs are defacto notable.

I have repeatedly stated this rationale in another past AFD but you choose to overlook it and keep on saying that they are WP:LISTCRUFT directories of non notable items. I am asking you why do you feel they are non notable? SL 7968 17:30, 18 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Read the opening bit. Y'know, the bit that lists my rationale. Plus the bit above were I've pointed out your !VOTE keep flaws. Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 17:31, 18 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The opening bit reads:

This fails WP:SAL (Every entry meets the notability criteria for its own non-redirect article in the English Wikipedia), WP:NOTDIR and every entry fails WP:NSONG}}.

My rough estimate is more than 50% of the Shreya Ghoshal songs are NOTABLEINTHEIROWNRIGHT. You have repeatedly said they are Nonnotable items and still have not explained why they are non notable. Repeatedly asserting non notability without explanation is considered WP:DISRUPTIVE. If you cannot be bothered to give explanations do not take notable articles to AFD in first place. SL 7968 17:42, 18 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

- - - I guess you have problems reading. I've already listed many reasons why these lists should be deleted (WP:SAL, NOTDIR, LISTCRUFT, all the songs fail WP:NSONG, etc). Citing WP:DISRUPTIVE when my nom clearly isn't reeks of someone who knows these lists all fail the notabilty requirements, but wont admit it. Which of the songs on the Alka Yagnik list have won National Film Award for Best Male Playback Singer or Best Female Playback Singer or Best Lyrics or Best Choreography? Back to you, professor. Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 17:51, 18 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

See the templates right below the Alka Yagnik article which should make it clear. As noted here the Shreya Ghoshal lists are the most well maintained of these listed here and other articles needs to follow the convention. SL 7968 17:57, 18 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Being well maintained isn't a valid reason to keep. Putting lots of non-notable information into a nice little table doesn't make it anymore notable. Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 18:04, 18 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Will you please stop your Wikilawyering? Over half or more of the listed articles on the Shreya Ghoshal page merit their own articles. The other artist lists here are more prolific but each of them contains a good number of songs that merit individual articles. In the last edit itself you have said lots of non-notable information without explaining why they are not notable in a insulting tone. Please stop it. SL 7968 18:13, 18 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Wikilawyering?! Please stop proving you wrong? Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 19:41, 18 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Keep IMO, this is an instance of Wikipedia:Systemic bias, as DrBlofeld has suggested. Of course, some of these list articles are poorly organized (notable exception being Shreya Ghoshal articles). And please don't cite the essay WP:OSE when I give the examples of articles such as List of songs recorded by Aaliyah or List of songs recorded by Magnapop, and say that those songs listed appear notable because those are heard in the Western countries and, more importantly, discussed in published material. As in many non-Western countries (and especially for older songs), published online material are hard to come by. Even then , I don't know how many songs by, say, Magnapop, wil lbe notable. If those lists exist easily, why do cherry-pick these lists?--Dwaipayan (talk) 18:49, 18 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I have already said keep above. Now, I read the Common Selecetion crietria in WP:SAL. I did not read that part well before. That part clearly states, one of the selection crietria is "Every entry in the list fails the notability criteria. These lists are created explicitly because most or all of the listed items do not warrant independent articles". I want to apply this criterion for these lists. The songs in the list do not meet notability criteria. So, they are listed in the list.--Dwaipayan (talk) 17:49, 20 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - if a singer has an article, then a song list is pretty well inevitable and unchallengeable. In ictu oculi (talk) 03:14, 19 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

WP:NOTINHERITED applies here. Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 06:41, 19 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

You said that before and its note likewise. But i hope you know that saying that again and again to almost every editor who comes here is actually hounding. §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {T/C} 06:49, 19 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Not only hounding but also disruptive. SL 7968 06:53, 19 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Please stop with your Wikilawyering. Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 07:11, 19 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Speedy keep - A Sep 26, 2012 Times of India article on Lata Mangeshkar says, "After more than 65 years of singing you continue to be our national treasure. What summits remain for you to conquer?" Let's not make that summit the question of WP:BIAS on our site. We have 249 Lists of songs by recording artists at the moment. A "national treasure" with a career of 65 years and numerous movie tracks, who has never, ever sung a "notable" song? Somebody has to be kidding. Djembayz (talk) 23:13, 19 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Show me how any of the songs meet WP:NSONG. Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 07:47, 20 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I wont insult your intelligence by explaining it to you. SL 7968 08:11, 20 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Speedy Keep - These follow lists of songs by other artists. Dwaipayan's logic is solid.Pectore^talk 01:53, 20 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - per Dwaipayan, and per Category:Lists of songs by recording artists. Anir1uph | talk | contrib 10:18, 20 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS and these lists fail all of the notability guidelines. Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 12:41, 20 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

User:Lugnuts: Please stop repeatedly quoting wiki policies here. I have seen your arguments, but i do not agree with them - as simple as that. Anir1uph | talk | contrib 16:57, 20 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Heaven forbid a decission is made on the basis of a policy! That's great you don't agree. Well done you. Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 16:59, 20 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly! Heavens forbid we apply a wrong wiki policy to delete articles. I must say that I find your conduct at this AfD quite confrontational, and it disturbs me. You have replied (and multipe times) at almost every oppose. Is this your usual behavior at AfDs? Anir1uph | talk | contrib 17:03, 20 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Well you'll have no concerns - as the correct wiki policies are being applied here. Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 17:09, 20 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Do you reply just to make a point? Anir1uph | talk | contrib 17:15, 20 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Of course not. WP:AFD (linking to another policy - sorry about that) clearly states "Articles for deletion (AfD) is where Wikipedians discuss whether an article should be deleted." All I'm doing is discussing the deletion. It's quite straightforward. Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 17:20, 20 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I think you are hounding editors who oppose you. I had seen all the reasons everyone had put forward here before forming my opinion. After I post my opinion, I do not need to be reminded again and again about your own opinion on the matter. I have already seen it once. You certainly do not need to remind your opinion on this matter to every editor who has voted against you in this discussion.

WP:AGF. Have a read of that too. Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 17:38, 20 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I am sorry but I cannot AGF for your actions now - not anymore, after 5 comments from you to my comment. I do find your conduct here troublesome. And I am sure you will have another pointless reply to this too. Anir1uph | talk | contrib 18:07, 20 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Looks like he doesn't get it when said once and hence thinks it applies for all. Lugnuts, how about considering that all editors have read your opinion once but as they do not agree with it, they are still commenting against that opinion? §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {T/C} 18:49, 20 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I've considered it. Thanks. Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 18:55, 20 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of India-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 15:10, 20 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 15:11, 20 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Strong keep. This nomination is, I'm afraid, a typical example of WP:Systemic bias. Let's delete a list of songs by Lata Mangeshkar, possibly the most prolific and arguably one of the most famous singers of all time, anywhere, in any genre, because she does not conform to our Western ... no, wait, because some of her songs are not notable. She herself is completely, totally notable; there is no conceivable reason why there should not be a list of her songs here. Naturally, in accordance with our practice, each song should have a reliable reference to establish its existence. An alternative would be to list all her songs in the article about her; but since there are many, many thousands of them, the article might get a little oversized. Keep the list, split it when necessary. And do the same for the others too. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 00:15, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, the individual is notable, but the songs are not (WP:NSONG, WP:NOTINHERITED). There's no "systemic bias" here. If a bunch of non-notable items are not-notable, then they are not-notable. Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 06:39, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I think you've said that before. Which part exactly of WP:CSC, criterion #2, "Every entry in the list fails the notability criteria. These lists are created explicitly because most or all of the listed items do not warrant independent articles", do you not understand? Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 10:26, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

You've answered your own question there with "most or all of the listed items do not warrant independent articles". Hence the lack of notability for a list of non-notable items. Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 11:14, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. You make it clear that you don't understand any part of it. That is a criterion for list creation, not for list deletion. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 11:38, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

They go hand-in-hand. It's clear you don't understand that. If it doesn't meet the criterion for list creation, then it shouldn't exist. Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 11:53, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

":Congrats! You did it again. §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {T/C} 17:10, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

":Thanks buddy - now get barnstar building. Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 18:11, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

LoL!! Hey Lugnuts, probably you are lost in the jungle of words. The reason for creating some lists is that the items in that list are not notable and not worthey of their own articles, and a list of such non-notable things is ok to keep. That's what the WP:CSC, criterion #2 says.--Dwaipayan (talk) 21:11, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - This is part of encyclopedia related to Music in India. (Gokulchandola (talk) 04:44, 23 August 2013 (UTC))[reply]
Delete - Non-notable. Agree with Lugnuts a list of non-notables is non-notable. Caffeyw (talk) 10:00, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Nope, Caffeyw , a list of non-notables is not always non-notable. Criterion 2 of WP:CSC says that noatble lists include one in which "Every entry in the list fails the notability criteria. These lists are created explicitly because most or all of the listed items do not warrant independent articles" So, you are getting fundamentally wrong.--Dwaipayan (talk) 15:16, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - per Dr.Blofeld and Dwaipayan. Songs in Indian movies are indeed sometimes more important than the movies themselves. Also, this list clearly satisfies WP:CSC#2. WP:LISTCRUFT says In general, a "list of X" should only be created if X itself is a legitimate encyclopedic topic that already has its own article. which is clearly the case here. (Also note that listcruft is an essay, not a policy.) Per WP:NSONG, Songs and singles are probably notable if they have been the subject[1] of multiple, non-trivial[2] published works whose sources are independent of the artist and label. This means that most of the songs in the Lata list are probably notable (not having references does not make them non-notable, it just means the list needs work.) Also note per WP:DELETE, If the page can be improved, this should be solved through regular editing, rather than deletion. which clearly applies.--Siddhartha Ghai (talk) 12:06, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Keep --Abhijeet Safai (talk) 08:10, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Any reason why? Just out of interest... Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 08:54, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.