Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of series connected to the Tommy Westphall Universe (second nomination)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Can't sleep, clown will eat me 21:30, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

List of series connected to the Tommy Westphall Universe

In my opinion, this page does not conform by any stretch of the imagination to WP:NOR. All additions of shows, movies, etc. to the page are unreferenced, and the asserted connections made are not even stated. Any attempt to make this page properly referenced would need to provide a list of shows defined as connected from a primary source like a newspaper, and I know of no such source. "A link to someone's attempt to research this on their own" is not a source, and would also fall under WP:NOR. Although the article Tommy Westphall (Universe) might survive an AFD because its existence is discussed in primary sources, this is pure unreferenced speculation. I could add any show I wanted to this article, and declaratively add it to the 'Tommy Westphall Universe' by doing so. My belief is that unless someone has a statable plan to actually clean this article up, to have it conform to WP:NOR, it should be deleted. Skybunny 21:18, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

• Strong Delete Seems to be a list of most of the series of the last 40 years, with no indication at all how they might be connected. Fan-1967 21:33, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
• Delete Manifestly original research, without any apparent way to ever be otherwise; indicriminate in its present and prospective breadth; unreferenced and probably unverifiable with reliable sources; the entire premise depends from the weasel statement "some argue that any..."; and even if that premise is given every benefit of the doubt, it borders on speedable nonsense.---Fuhghettaboutit 21:52, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Some also seem to be Kevin Bacon-ish links (show A connected to show B, which is connected to show C...) -- Fan-1967 22:00, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
• It seems that this is a phenomenon outside this article[1], but it is still very low-profile and seems to be non-notable speculation so far. Perhaps this idea's time will come, but that time isn't now. Delete. — Saxifrage ✎ 23:08, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
• Strong delete pure trivia, original research, and doesn't take into consideration the fact taht Tommy Westphall might have watched something on TV or on the street and then integrated it into his fantasy, thereby breaking the fantasy universe into little tiny pieces. 132.205.44.134 01:50, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
• Delete not because of any of the arguments already given, but because there's already a website [2] that covers the idea, and it's linked from the Tommy Westphall article. Anybody who is really interested in the idea can look it up from there. FrozenPurpleCube 03:38, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
• Delete, merely recreates multiverse website. Seems like it should be on a wiki, but preferably not ours. --Dhartung | Talk 07:14, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
• Merge into the main Tommy Westphal article. As for the question of verifiability, it is easy enough to link to one of the online episode guides and verify that said character appeared on said show on said date---thus proving a connection between one program and another. Certainly, no one involved with this AfD is actually going to argue with the fact that certain television shows are connected to certain other television shows because of the "cross-over" of certain characters, yes? The real source of the argument, it seems, is the rejection of the idea of the Tommy Westphal "Universe," which, though it is speculative, is certainly verifiable and has a presence outside of Wikipedia. Skybunny has, in addition to making this AfD nomination, deleted most of the examples of cross-overs from the main Westphal article, indicating (at least to me) a prejudice against the very concept. As I have said, the fact that a character from one series appeared on an episode of another series can be verified, so what exactly is the problem?

---Charles 21:37, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Comment:

Certainly, no one involved with this AfD is actually going to argue with the fact that certain television shows are connected to certain other television shows because of the "cross-over" of certain characters, yes?

Perhaps before I start, I should explain that my intent with this AFD is not to debate the viability of the Tommy Westphall Universe; I'm discussing appropriate material for Wikipedia by policy.

To begin: let's say that the real Shakespeare wrote two fictional plays about a man named Prince Hamlet of Denmark. Are they the same Prince Hamlet, or different ones? The only person that can answer that question authoritatively is Shakespeare. Cliffs notes (or even the plays themselves) do not allow a reader to authoritatively draw this conclusion because by definition, they are two seperate fictional works; the best one can do is infer. If the two written plays were called 'Hamlet I' and 'Hamlet II', that might provide a stronger factual base, but it is still provided by Shakespeare in the form of the titles, and not by his readers. If it is provided by his readers, it is original research in the form of inference.

I do not believe it fair of us as encyclopaedians to assume conclusions about a person's writing and present it as fact, even if it seems obvious to us. Tom Fontana's interview in BBC News merely states that Mr. Fontana is aware of the existence of the Tommy Westphall Universe, not even that he endorses it, or to what extent. The quote was: "Someone did the math once ... and something like 90 per cent of all television took place in Tommy Westphall's mind. God love him." For the record, Wikipedia discourages treating "in universe" facts as real world fact: see WP:WAF. Wikipedia is an out-of-universe source, and all articles about fiction and elements of fiction should take an out-of-universe perspective. Comparing in-universe facts - what an episode guide will have in it - and drawing out-of-universe factual conclusions based on it is not considered encyclopaedic by Wikipedia.

I removed most of the crossover content on Tommy Westphall and left one example where Fontana was involved with both series because I think Fontana's intent with St. Elsewhere and Homicide: Life on the Street might be citable. It merely provides a framework by which people put the Westphall universe together, without trying to draw its boundaries, which is what I believe this list article is attempting to do by inference. Skybunny 22:59, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.