Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of restaurants in South Africa

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete‎. ✗plicit 14:31, 7 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

List of restaurants in South Africa[edit]

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This purports to be a list of notable restaurants in South Africa, but is, in fact, almost entirely a list of global chains. Even then, not all chains seem notable for an article. I have removed, just prior to this AFD, 2 spammy external links [1] to non notable restaurants, Vida e Caffè is one of the few non chain entries, but is a cafe, not a restaurant. I asked about notability criteria in May. See: Talk:List of restaurants in South Africa and there are no replies. Charitably, WP:TNT would apply. Any list of notable restaurants would need to start from scratch with clear inclusion criteria as to what constitutes notability. More broadly, such a list potentially falls foul of WP:NOTDIRECTORY. This page does not meet policy regarding WP:NLIST as this is not a notable collection, the collection never being discussed as a group or set. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 07:48, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Food and drink and Lists. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 07:48, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per nom. Agree that WP:TNT could likely apply but there's no need to preserve the curret iteration. —siro χ o 08:22, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of South Africa-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 08:48, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment There are 30 restaurants in the list. I found 8 global chains (Burger King, Dominos pizza, KFC, Krispy Kreme, McDonald's, Pizza Hut, Popeyes, Subway) and the remainder are local (Chicken Licken, Dulce Café, Debonairs Pizza, The Hussar Grill, John Dory's, Kauai, Kream, Mugg & Bean, Mzoli's, Mexican grills, Mochachos, Nando's, News Cafe, Panarottis, Papachinos, Roman's Pizza, RocoMamas, The Radium Beerhall, Spur,Steers, Vida e Caffè). Wimpy is a bit of an edge case. Regardless, I don't think NOMs assertion that this is "in fact, almost entirely a list of global chains" is valid. Also notability doesn't apply to the contents of lists as per WP:NLISTITEM. NOM wouldn't have gotten a reply on the talk page for the article, because there's a dearth of South African editors at the best of times and I daresay most are using their precious time with electricity for more important things than editing Wikipedia :). Also looks like there was an edit that removed a lot of content in 2021[2]. Park3r (talk) 09:04, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There is a Chicken Licken near where I live in Wales, and Nandos is all over. The same is true of various of these. (Dulce Cafe's page shows it is international, Debonairs Pizza has outlets in 14 countries, Hussar Grill is in 15 countries. I could go on. Which of these exactly do you think are not interantional?) Some of these (not all) may well have started in South Africa but they are global chains. Wimpy is not an edge case, it is clearly global too, started in the US. So yes, this is almost entirely a list of global chains and not individual notable restaurants. A few may be chains limited just to South Africa, but even then, this list still fails WP:NLIST. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 09:45, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- Chicken Licken is a very large and popular South African chain with hundreds of stores, the fact that an unrelated(?) Welsh takeaway shares its name doesn't make it an international brand. Debonairs originated in South Africa as did Hussar Grill, which started in Cape Town, and has 2 international branches.[3] As for Wimpy, it may have started overseas, but it is most popular in, and headquartered in, South Africa. Park3r (talk) 10:00, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  It is not unrelated, it is, as I understand it, a franchise arrangement. In any case, Chicken Licken is certainly international as per its Wikipedia page, it is also in Botswana. Regarding the others that are also clearly international franchise chains, it would be possible to envisage a list that cuts out all the chains not started in South Africa, but what you have left is a different list. It is not a list of restaurants in South Africa, it is a list of restaurant franchise chains originating in South Africa. Also your point about notability not applying to individual items is all very well, but the page says: This is a list of notable restaurants in South Africa. Clearly it can't be a list of all restaurants as that would be indiscriminate, so the one criterion that is in place is notability, however that is defined. Thus my removal of two external links to non notable restaurants was in order, I think, but I mentioned it in the nom. statement to be up front about a change I made to the page prior to nomination. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 10:16, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - it's indiscrimate information. Nobody is suggesting that this list is ever going to include every restaurant in SA therefore inclusion is entirely at the whim of editors. WP:NOTEVERYTHING JMWt (talk) 10:18, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Category:Restaurant chains in South Africa exist. Are we listing restaurants that exist only in South Africa, which began in South Africa, or which exist in other places as well as South Africa? If its the last one then the list would be pointless. Dream Focus 00:32, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.