Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of restaurants in Hungary

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep‎. There is consensus that the list may serve a valid navigational purpose iff clear inclusion criteria are set out; there are many comments here suggesting that only wiki-notable restaurants be included, but determining the criteria is out of scope here. Were this article to balloon into a list full of non-notable entries, the arguments for deletion would carry a lot more weight. Vanamonde (Talk) 17:09, 31 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

List of restaurants in Hungary[edit]

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There is no way to include all restraunts of Hungary. And there isn't a clear limit to flit the restraunts, which make the page to be advertisement of those who in the acticle --燃玉(Ranyv)(talk) 00:12, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Food and drink, Shopping malls, and Hungary. --燃玉(Ranyv)(talk) 00:12, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep, but only the ones with articles, i.e. actually notable. Why pick on Hungary? Lists of restaurants#By country has 16 more country lists. Clarityfiend (talk) 00:38, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
WP:OTHERSTUFF. Timothytyy (talk) 07:39, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Those who yearn for erasure seem to dance a duplicitous waltz, embracing consensus in fair weather, yet shunning it amidst the storm.

Verily, the existence of similar articles stands as a testament to consensus achieved.

OTHERSTUFF, thus, is not a ghost to be evaded; rather, shines a mirror to the illustrious archives of our communal accord. Jack4576 (talk) 15:01, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The point of OTHERSTUFF is to prevent whataboutisms as a means of deflecting criticism. TheInsatiableOne (talk) 15:15, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Nom and voters, please give your stances on whether it fails WP:NLIST. Personally I see no harm of keeping this but I won't oppose deletion. Timothytyy (talk) 07:42, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. This is not a List of restaurants in Hungary, it is a list of two notable restaurants in Budapest (and two non-notable ones). Does the author of the list think that there are no restaurants in the rest of Hungary? Or that there are no places in Hungary apart from Budapest? For what it's worth I eaten in good restaurants not only in Budapest (not at the ones listed), but also in Visegrád, Balatonfüred, Tihány, Badacsony, Szigliget, Szeged, and doubtless others that I've forgotten. A more serious list might be possible, but it would take a huge amount of time and effort, and the existing list is so extremely far from justifying the title that the only reasonable option is to delete, rather than, say, expand. Despite many edits the current list is not very different from the one created in 2014. Athel cb (talk) 09:15, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Honourable fellows, though your points ring with veracity, I implore you to reconsider. Indeed, our Hungarian list might be deemed scanty, yet is it not our duty to nourish its growth rather than decree its doom? Shall we condemn the sapling for not being the oak? Do recall, Rome was not built in a day, nor shall our list be. Let us opt for expansion over obliteration, guide the hands of our editors to construct a worthy account, reflective of the rich culinary tapestry that is Hungary. Keep. Jack4576 (talk) 10:17, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

In the nine years since the article was created there has been essentially no growth. OK, there was a spurt of additions of Starbucks etc., but these were (rightly) deleted. Athel cb (talk) 12:24, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see any use of this list. Wikipedia isn't a travel guide, so this (very incomplete) 'list' seems useless. It should be turned into a category for convenience. Timothytyy (talk) 12:36, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Having a category is fine (if there is not one already? [there is: Category:Restaurants in Hungary), but that is not a substitute. wp:CLNT explains how categories, lists, and navigational templates are complementary. Basically if there is a category there can be a list, which can include references, photos, maps, discussion in context, and more [including redlinks identifying notable items not having articles yet, where notability is supported by an inline reference, as have been added by me. --00:06, 20 May 2023 (UTC)]. --Doncram (talk,contribs) 21:49, 18 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Honourable fellows, though your points ring with veracity... This practically reeks of a ChatGPT-penned post. Zaathras (talk) 14:19, 19 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Per WP:NOTTRAVEL and this isn't picking on Hungary in particular, it's just an ill fitting article. --TheInsatiableOne (talk) 12:54, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"Not a travel guide" is not relevant; that is about not including telephone numbers and opening hours etc., not present here. --Doncram

Keep, per Clarityfiend & Jack4576, the article could grow in the future as more "blue" restaurants are added. Alexcalamaro (talk) 04:28, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
it has been multiple years with no updates forthcoming. TheInsatiableOne (talk) 07:10, 18 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

So what. There's no rush. I might go to Hungary soon myself, and if I do I will add to it. Or someone else will.

And, if you think it's too short, I suppose you should argue it should be merged back up to worldwide List of restaurants, and only re-split out again when it is of a certain size. That's an editorial decision, not for AFD. --Doncram (talk,contribs) 21:49, 18 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Keep, per Clarityfiend & Jack4576 & Alexcalamaro. --Doncram (talk,contribs) 21:49, 18 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete the Wikipedia is not a travel guide. Zaathras (talk) 14:19, 19 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes... or perhaps it depends on how you define that term? If traveling, I would certainly be consulting Wikipedia as well as WikiVoyage and other sources which are less comprehensive about history, etc.

Anyhow this list-article absolutely does not violate Wikipedia's wp:NOTTRAVEL policy, which is about not including phone numbers and the like, and not trying to exhaustively list _all_ examples (of restaurants in Hungary, in this case), which this list-article does not. --Doncram (talk,contribs) 23:40, 19 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: The list-article has been expanded by me to include 14 rather than just 4 items, and it now includes all Michelin Guide-starred restaurants in Hungary. As such the list-article is now one of 25 members of Category:Lists of Michelin Guide starred restaurants (which has lists in various nations and cities). Note that lists of restaurants are accepted in Wikipedia, and this now compares better to others. --Doncram (talk,contribs) 23:40, 19 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
More entries, which are red links. Not exactly useful. TheInsatiableOne (talk) 23:59, 22 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You added non-notable restaurants in an attempt to make the subject look more expansive than it actually is. This is similar to ref-bombing, and as disruptive. Zaathras (talk) 23:22, 23 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Huh?!? Why would you think any one of them is not notable? The ones i added are all top-rated. You try to open a restaurant and win a Michelin star. And try to prevent there from being plenty of coverage! Try English language Google News search for any one of them. For Salt, for example, you immediately get to a CNN feature about it. The notability of each is already supported by reliable references in the article. It doesn't matter that most are redlinks, or if they were just mentioned without creating links at all (though redlinks are good to have). I simply do not understand why anyone would still oppose this article, if they did any browsing at all. --Doncram (talk,contribs) 05:20, 24 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Why would you think any one of them is not notable?, the sea of red may be a hint. Zaathras (talk) 13:24, 24 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm, right, you won't state that you have done any searching at all, and you have no objection to any source among 17 already included in this list-article. The redlinks for all of the top restaurants added (all supported by inline sources) suggests to me that the English wikipedia doesn't have too many Hungarian contributors, or at least not too many contributors focusing on restaurants in the former Eastern Bloc. Deleting a list-article is not the way forward. I interpret the objections generally as just "I don't like it", or as ignorance that redlinked topics can be notable (i.e., that Wikipedia is not finished) even in face of sources suggesting or proving notability of them all. I probably won't respond further.--Doncram (talk,contribs) 14:12, 24 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"this doesn't have a wikipedia article" is not an indication of notability or a criteria in any notability guideline. Per WP:OTHERSTUFF Equally, because articles must wait for someone who is interested in the subject to notice they are missing before they are created, a lot of articles do not exist that probably should. I would be moderately surprised if a Michelin starred restaurant wasn't notable, almost all of them have a significant amount of coverage in food guides, travel guides and reviews. 192.76.8.86 (talk) 17:16, 24 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per WP:LISTPURP-NAV. This is a valid navigational list created as part of a larger scheme of "list of restaurants by country" lists. 192.76.8.86 (talk) 17:00, 24 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Only half of the list is linked, so I don't think WP:LISTPURP-NAV can apply to the list asis. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 19:34, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Valid navigational list. While there aren't currently articles for the red links right now, that doesn't make them not notable. There's WP:NODEADLINE for that. Qwaiiplayer (talk) 12:38, 25 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
But what makes them notable? What are the inclusin criteria of the list? Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 19:35, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Restaurants that meet WP:NCORP are generally notable enough for their own article. Having a Michelin star generally is enough to presume that significant independent coverage exists. Qwaiiplayer (talk) 19:43, 30 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Well yes, a restaurant that meets NCORP is notable by definition. That is what NCORP is for. But having a Michelin star is not generally enough to meet WP:SIRS, and thus NCORP. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 20:04, 30 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - Per WP:NLIST, no evidence that this is discussed as a group. The list has no inclusion criteria (see WP:LISTV#INC ), and is thus indiscriminate, and in the WP:NCORP area this is important because it could fall foul of WP:SPIP in that we are promoting some restaurants at the expense of others. The sources given on th epage do not establish notability. Note that WP:NCORP does not apply to individual list entries, but the point here is that the list promotes certain restaurants at the expense of others, and without a secondary source collection for it to be based on, it becomes publicity, which is exactly what NCORP seeks to avoid. Fails WP:NOTGUIDE. Keep votes appear to be spurious based on navigation (which this list is not) or OTHERSTUFF. I do recognise Doncram's efforts to base entries off the Michelin guide, but duplicating the guide then fails WP:NOTGUIDE. What is needed is a secondary source for the list, and that remains lacking. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 19:48, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
WP:NOTGUIDE would be a reason to delete content that duplicated the Michelin guide (if not already deleted as a copyright infringement) but not a reason to delete articles about the restaurants, or lists of restaurants with entries in the guide. Peter James (talk) 19:17, 30 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Copyright can exist in a collection (called database right in the UK, but copyright in some jurisdictions). If the list duplicates the collection, then the list, not the linked articles are what fail WP:NOTGUIDE.Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 19:36, 30 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The Michelin guides are not just lists. They are guides because of the style and content of entries. Otherwise guides would be the same as lists and we would delete all. Peter James (talk) 20:04, 30 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep There can be a list of restaurants with articles, for navigation purposes (WP:CLN and WP:CSC), and another WP:CSC criterion "Short, complete lists of every item that is verifiably a member of the group" for List of Michelin starred restaurants in Hungary, most of which are notable. Because the lists would be short and significantly overlap, it's reasonable to combine them in one list. Peter James (talk) 19:17, 30 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There could be such a list, but this isn't it. Just an arbitrary listing inflated with red links, and what blue links there are have maybe 3-4 sentences worth of content each. TheInsatiableOne (talk) 09:16, 31 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I removed the two that had no clear reason for inclusion in the list[1]. Peter James (talk) 10:16, 31 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - no plausible way we could list every restaurant in Hungary, clear failure of WP:NLIST. — Amakuru (talk) 11:37, 31 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep although this could potentially turn into an indiscriminate list of restaurants, it hasn't and it would be quite easy to set out inclusion criteria to ensure that it doesn't. Lots of lists only include entries with standalone Wikipedia articles (WP:CSC), and we haven't got many of those. The entries in the list which don't have articles all have Michelin stars, there can't be many of those (no country has more than a few hundred) and they're very likely to be notable. As for WP:NLIST I find it hard to believe there aren't sources on the subject of restaurants in Hungary and the list would have navigational value even if there aren't. Hut 8.5 12:11, 31 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per WP:LISTPURP-NAV. This is not a pointless cross-categorization. It definitely serves an encyclopedic purpose. For example, it saves time to a reader wanting to learn about Hungarian cuisine, in complement to the article. 2001:48F8:3004:FC4:D480:5FD5:9310:3BA4 (talk) 16:06, 31 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.