Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of repertoire pieces by Ferruccio Busoni

Add links
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Ultimately, the creator is no longer interested in it, some of the handful of "keep" !votes were concerned about what title it should have and how it is structured. If anyone would like the page userfied, please let me know. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 18:28, 8 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

List of repertoire pieces by Ferruccio Busoni[edit]

[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!

List of repertoire pieces by Ferruccio Busoni (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)
(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

This is an unnecessary list that seems to only seems to add the performances of certain pieces of Busoni's. There is no reason to have List of compositions by Ferruccio Busoni and List of adaptations by Ferruccio Busoni along with this seemingly useless list. Why? I Ask (talk) 22:47, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comment – Re. "certain pieces" – incorrect: the list is not about "certain pieces" (which would be a subjective selection criterion), but about all compositions by Busoni that demonstrably (as in: verifiable to reliable sources) kept repertoire after the composer's death. --Francis Schonken (talk) 06:32, 23 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Looking at your sources it seems a large bulk of them come from the site https://www.muziekweb.nl/. I doubt that this meets the standard for a reliable source without others to back it up. Why? I Ask (talk) 00:00, 26 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Muziekweb (Official website) is a reliable source, at least I see no reason to doubt that. --Francis Schonken (talk) 12:04, 26 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It's not that it is necessarily not reliable, it's because of the nature of it. It's a library; one that simply tells you who has played a certain piece of music. It doesn't define that the pieces played are inherently notable or standard "repertoire". Why? I Ask (talk) 23:59, 26 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
No such claim has been made, nor is it needed. SPECIFICO talk 00:40, 27 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Music-related deletion discussions. Why? I Ask (talk) 22:47, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU(T) 22:49, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Albums and songs-related deletion discussions. ---DOOMSDAYER520 (TALK|CONTRIBS) 17:33, 23 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I created this list, then called Ferruccio Busoni works because I found the complete works too loaded with detail. I left it like this in 2016 and forgot about it. I don't care. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:00, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment So is it right to say it's akin to a "Greatest Hits" page? Why? I Ask (talk) 23:03, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      • I don't know, because I don't even know what it is now. At the time, it was the beginning of making the works sortable, based on Max Reger works. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:08, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the Article Rescue Squadron's list of content for rescue consideration. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 23:04, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Why? I Ask: re. "... is it right to say it's akin to a "Greatest Hits" page?" – No. Most of Busoni's works fell into oblivion, and are only mentioned occasionally (e.g., in lists of works) without musicians ever preforming them, and even less audiences ever encountering them. Full lists of Busoni's compositions are invariably burdened with large amounts of such compositions which almost nobody even ever heard about. "Repertoire" is an encyclopedic category (no lack of page names carrying the descriptor, and it is used in article prose even more), so a list with all compositions by the composer that kept repertoire (as in: music a reader of the encyclopedia might actually encounter) definitely makes sense. --Francis Schonken (talk) 08:01, 23 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge. There was no need to use the unorthodox term "repertoire". The term usually applies to a composer-performer like Chopin, Liszt or Reger. The content should be merged to a standard list article. If there is a lead, the word "repertoire" might appear. Mathsci (talk) 04:39, 23 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per User:Smerus. Merging an unwieldy list into the good article on Busoni doesn't seem reasonable. Mathsci (talk) 15:46, 25 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete/merge If there is something to be gained from merging, I suppose, but otherwise delete. Such a list is extremely difficult to define coherently, and neither the current state, nor the former seem to do this clearly. Even if this was a list for Chopin, drawing a line at what pieces are considered "repertoire" for a specific composer is too vague and dubious without multiple sources clearly saying so (which I'm not sure we'd be able to find). Aza24 (talk) 06:08, 23 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep – see also my comments above. The page is well within the conditions set out at Wikipedia:Content forking#List formats. As a list it is, for instance, also well within the requirements of WP:LISTCRITERIA. Selection criteria are clear: any composition by Busoni keeping repertoire after the composer's death is eligible for inclusion. Anyhow, the problem remains for the time being with List of compositions by Ferruccio Busoni, List of adaptations by Ferruccio Busoni and Ferruccio Busoni discography which need a lot of work. --Francis Schonken (talk) 07:09, 23 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • any composition by Busoni keeping repertoire after the composer's death is eligible for inclusion. – confused, what is meant by "keeping repertoire"? And how is a single recording by Groschopp (who doesn't even have a WP article) mean that the work is now considered "repertoire"—is this all it takes, one recording after the composer's death? If this is the case, then every piece by Chopin, Beethoven, Mozart etc. would be considered repertoire, which seems to defeat the purpose of the word. Aza24 (talk) 09:46, 23 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      • Re. "keeping repertoire after the composer's death": this means, belonging to the repertoire of at least one performer after the lifetime of the composer (which is WP:V-wise a straightforward criterion). As said, a large portion of Busoni's compositions fall below that threshold (more than half of them if I'm correct), which makes the full lists so unwieldy, especially the ones now included in Wikipedia (they go in a lot of extraneous, often WP:V-failing, detail, largely immersed in unmanageable formatting).
      Re. "Chopin, Beethoven, Mozart etc.": lists of compositions by these composers typically include lost and/or doubtful compositions: the lost ones are never "repertoire" (duh), and the doubtful ones may, or may not, be "repertoire". Since for these composers, making a separate "repertoire pieces" list will usually not result in a significantly different list than the main list, I also don't think that would be a good idea for these composers. Other composers have only a small part of their output ever performed (e.g. Christoph Graupner comes to mind), so that a "repertoire pieces" list on a separate page would not make much sense either: a full list of the music by the composer that is still being performed can in such case easily be included in the composer's biographical article (see, e.g., Pietro Torri#Discography or Johann Ludwig Bach#Recordings). That being said, Busoni is indeed one of those (few?) composers where a full list of all compositions on a single separate page is unwieldy and/or impractical for encyclopedic purposes (including WP:PAGESIZE principles), and a list of the pieces still being performed (that is, which one could actually encounter in concert life and/or recordings) is too big to be just appended to another article.
      --Francis Schonken (talk) 10:49, 23 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      PS: let me give an example of a composition by Mozart, Laß immer in der Jugend Glanz, K. 440d, which BTW also appears in Schubert's catalogue of compositions (formerly as D 92), which is IMHO not a repertoire piece (could find no trace in reliable sources that it would ever have been performed during or after the composer's lifetime), and which also does not belong to either the "lost" or "doubtful" categories. As said, for Chopin, Beethoven and Mozart there are likely not a lot of such compositions, so a separate "repertoire pieces" list likely doesn't make much sense for these composers, just drawing the attention to the fact that in almost any case there is a difference between a list of all compositions by a composer, and a list of the same composer's repertoire pieces. Busoni's is only exceptional in that he had a broad output (over 400 works when including his adaptations), over half of which is apparently never performed again (only around 150 still are). --Francis Schonken (talk) 12:00, 23 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      I understand the criteria now, but am still left unconvinced. I can understand why something like Turandot Suite is considered repertoire (with 5 recordings), but not something like Tema con Variazioni with a single one. And if someone like Leslie Howard (musician) came to Busoni and recorded all of his piano works, they'd magically all be repertoire? It just doesn't make sense. I don't see why the "Performed by" column can't be inserted in his comp list. Best - Aza24 (talk) 23:47, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      @Aza24: "magically"? No, a pianist taking a piece in his repertoire is unrelated to magic. Re. "I don't see why the "Performed by" column can't be inserted in his comp list" – please proceed (offering solutions nobody is going to implement is just a diversion – illustrating this is a realistic solution can only be done by implementing it, so please proceed, I insist). --Francis Schonken (talk) 12:46, 25 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      You don't have to ping me, I'm watching the page; Unfortunately, I still see no reason why pieces with one recording should be bundled in a list with pieces with ten recordings. Aza24 (talk) 23:22, 25 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      Sorry for the ping: I pinged you because I wanted to make sure you saw my request to please, please, implement what you propose (it has now become completely unclear to me what kind of a solution you suggest, see also below).
      Explaining (again) why a single recording vs no recording makes a bigger difference than one recording vs ten recordings: once a single performer, or ensemble, has taken a work on their repertoire list, this multiplies the chances of a reader of the Wikipedia encyclopedia having encountered that music by a manifold. Once it goes from a single recording to multiple recordings that difference isn't all that big (meaning: not much "more" readers of the encyclopedia have likely encountered the music). Illustrating: when Holger Groschopp is the first to save some Busoni piano pieces from oblivion, one gets, for example, an article in Gramophone, distribution of the recording via libraries such as Muziekweb, via Apple Music and other on-line outlets (not even mentioning bootlegs at YouTube and the like), etc. Anyhow, the chance someone actually encounters such until then virtually unknown piece expands vastly; if another performer records the same, that rarely adds much to that likelyhood of the piece being encountered somewhere. Such audience for a piece that has been added to a performer's repertoire, might be interested in getting to know more about the piece, and come to Wikipedia for that purpose. Now, the List of compositions by Ferruccio Busoni/List of adaptations by Ferruccio Busoni pair is thoroughly impractical to find something (with its bulk of unperformed pieces, excess of remote info, unsortable split lists, etc.) and the discography list is not better (and runs behind miserably on recent recordings, which nobody adds to the page because of its impractical organisation). That's why the repertoire pieces list makes sense, until the other lists are thoroughly reformed. --Francis Schonken (talk) 13:14, 26 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment re. "merge" suggestion – could it be indicated *to where* this is supposedly to be merged? --Francis Schonken (talk) 07:09, 23 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • As per Aza24's suggestion - add a column to the existing listing with recordings. If Francis Schonken can't be bothered to do it, why should he expect or demand anyone else to?--Smerus (talk) 15:20, 25 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • ??? Not what Aza24 suggested: Aza24 suggested to add to the "comp" list (which is not the recordings list); the recordings list, that is Ferruccio Busoni discography, is not organised in columns, so "adding" a column to it makes no sense. Did you never actually look at these pages? That is, after I tried a few times to draw attention to the fact how *messy* they are? But really, if you think it is not only possible, but an improvement to slap a "column" in the Busoni discography mess, please proceed, and slap the column in, so that your co-editors can assess the result. --Francis Schonken (talk) 15:49, 25 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      • to the existing listing with recordings — "with recordings" not "to recordings", Smerus can correct me if I'm wrong but I believe he's referring to the comp list as the existing listing, and suggesting we add the column with recordings to it, which is what I was saying. Aza24 (talk) 23:22, 25 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
        • Aza24, what you suggest has now become completely enigmatic to me: where do you propose to add what? I suggested you do that yourself, because explaining what you mean appears to be going nowhere, and as far as I can tell the approach you propose is completely impractical (unless, of course I can see it isn't after you've implemented it). --Francis Schonken (talk) 12:20, 26 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per nom.--Smerus (talk) 22:47, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Francis Schonken has taken the opportunity to add this entire list to the main Ferrucio Busoni article without discussion, (which I have now reverted). This seriously distorts a GA article, with a listing which is clearly non-consensual, and is twice as long as the orginal article. He justified this by suggesting, inaccurately, that the proposal to merge it to the article had been made in this discussion. Imo (for what it is worth) such an action is contravention of standard WP manners and courtesy.--Smerus (talk) 15:15, 25 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      • Re. "... suggesting, inaccurately ..." – I made no such inaccurate suggestion. Please don't throw nonsense at this, Tx. But anyhow, QED, this best remains on a separate page. --Francis Schonken (talk) 15:30, 25 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
        • Francis Schonken, your edit at Ferruccio Busoni clearly states "Per suggestion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of repertoire pieces by Ferruccio Busoni, i.e., as an alternative to the actual suggestion". Awaiting your apology, --Smerus (talk) 15:50, 25 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
          • No such apology is needed (my edit summary was extremely accurate), awaiting your apology for the false accusation, thanks. --Francis Schonken (talk) 15:53, 25 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      I also disagree with merging this complex list into the composer's article, - it's undue weight there, a bad alternative. Hard to say what it is stand-alone. I see around 5 views per day, so it seems to mean something to a few readers. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:59, 25 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Possibly with a different page name. This is a very valuable resource. WP has lists of video games and rock musicians' shoes. Why not this? SPECIFICO talk 21:35, 25 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Comment Because nearly all of the information besides certain performers can be found on the multiple other lists regarding this composer. Your reasoning that WP has "lists of video games and rock musicians' shoes" isn't a very compelling argument. Lists of top-selling video games or games published by 'X' company are valuable and popular resources, for example. This is really not (As seen by the sub-100 view count that it typically gets per month). Also, may I ask about the rock musicians' shoe page? Can you link that? That sounds rather interesting. Why? I Ask (talk) 23:13, 25 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    I favor the most comprehensive list of his works, and in a sortable format, with as many columns as we have available data. Your argument about popularity is rejected out of hand. That's not what encyclopedias are about. And no paper is wasted on a seldom-read page here. SPECIFICO talk 23:59, 25 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    That's the reason I opened this discussion. More comprehensive lists exist (see Ferruccio Busoni discography, List of adaptations by Ferruccio Busoni, and List of compositions by Ferruccio Busoni). This repertoire page exists for no other reason than to say "well these are works that got played once". It's not useful in any manner and the information could be merged to the other pages. (Francis' argument about the composition/adaptation pages being too big doesn't have much weight looking at other similar lists for other composers; the pages only have around 200 compositions or so.) I do appreciate Francis' efforts to add IMSLP links and I hope that he or some editor can do the same for the other pages. Why? I Ask (talk) 00:30, 26 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Valuable to... the 5 people that visited on 6/20/2020 or the (highest of the year) 13 people on 5/19/2020? Aza24 (talk) 23:22, 25 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 10:15, 30 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete As per the nominator. Basically, all the information in this article is already presented in others and more effectively at that. This just reads like a lot of confused clutter. CurryTime7-24 (talk) 06:38, 1 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/List_of_repertoire_pieces_by_Ferruccio_Busoni&oldid=1005637951"