Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of liturgical Hebrew cognates

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Mark Arsten (talk) 01:13, 14 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

List of liturgical Hebrew cognates[edit]

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The article consists of a list of Hebrew terms, comparing their pronunciations in the various liturgical traditions.

Firstly, I do not see why this is encyclopedic material; at best, it should be transwikied.

Also, the methods of transcription are idiosyncratic, and the choice of sub-dialects is also unusual (ŋ for ayin in Ashkenazi Hebrew, for instance.) הסרפד (call me Hasirpad) 22:11, 4 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Judaism-related deletion discussions. הסרפד (call me Hasirpad) 22:15, 4 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Language-related deletion discussions. הסרפד (call me Hasirpad) 22:15, 4 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. הסרפד (call me Hasirpad) 22:15, 4 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Delete By WP:Wikipedia is not a dictionary, it is also not a directory, and the English Wikipedia is not for an article in which the information is in another language. Kitfoxxe (talk) 22:29, 4 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Keep because (a) The Hebrew language is very ancient dating back at least 4,000+ years in its origins and development, so that therefore (b) it is only logical, historically necessary correct, and simple etymology that there are so many variants in its pronunciation. This list is only a tiny fraction of that reality. Now wonder that (c) there are so many articles based on Hebrew words, and hence Category:Hebrew words and phrases. (d) The reason/s cited by the nominator are not valid in this case because of WP:NOTPAPER and this information is highly informative and educational. Also, please take a look at the advice in WP:DONOTDEMOLISH. (e) User Gilgamesh (talk · contribs) the creator of this list is a long time reliable editor, knowledgeable in this field, having created this article in 2004! and it would be a great pity that this is lost now. (f) For each word the list cites the common English Biblical usage is cited and then continues with the variances that exists or have existed in Hebrew. By all means improve it, and engage its creator in a WP:AGF discussion how to get that done. (g) Prayer in HEBREW (see List of Jewish prayers and blessings) and Torah study based on HEBREW are central to the practice of Judaism, and therefore the kind of words and how they are used is important. And obviously this is important to both Christianity and Islam as well since they are derived from and borrow from the original Hebrew of Judaism. Thus (h) it is no surprise that there are categories such as Category:Hebrew words and phrases in Jewish prayers and blessings. (i) In a similar and related fashion, there are many examples of lists comparing words and their different usages or origins in all sorts of situations, see for example the vastly differing and often esoteric examples in Category:Lists of English words (with sub-categories such as Category:Lists of English words of foreign origin). On and on what seems "esoteric" it goes, see List of eponymous adjectives in English; List of Latin words with English derivatives. See Category:Arabic words and phrases with List of Quranic names. (j) Bottom line, while the list may "seem" specialized and "out-of-place" -- and like many articles and lists it can and will be improved over time, especially if expert editorial input is requested at WP:TALKJUDAISM -- it nevertheless serves as a valuable and encyclopedic entry demonstrating differences of pronunciation within Hebrew and existing at the same in English in similar forms that would be entirely self-defeating for WP to lose. Thank you, IZAK (talk) 06:21, 5 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
@IZAK: I assume that you didn't list points a–c and f–h for my benefit?

Let me state my points more clearly; the problems with this article are as follows:

(1) the topic is not encyclopedic, that is, not in the scope of an encyclopedia, per WP:NOTDICTIONARY;

(2a) the topic is not independently notable (even if the Hebrew language, its many dialects, Jewish liturgy and its variants all are);

(2b) the list does not serve a conceivable navigational purpose so that it should be kept regardless of notability; and

(3) even if kept or transwikied there are content issues to be dealt with, namely the choice of sub-dialects representing the major dialects (Ashkenazi Hebrew is significant; ŋ-Ashkenazi is not, except in a discussion of all varieties of Hebrew) and consistency in method of transcription.

(Gilgamesh's high quality of editing is completely irrelevant to whether the article is kept.) הסרפד (call me Hasirpad) 23:56, 5 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

No contest. It was all original research almost a decade ago, when I was barely starting to learn the ins and outs of Wikipedia and its goals. - Gilgamesh (talk) 10:01, 5 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I should add — there is certainly merit in this study. But my old approach was inappropriately amateurish and entirely unreferenced. The various phonetic traditions should be addressed as topics (which they are in many of the different Hebrew dialect articles), but an indexed, referenced collection of specific traditional pronunciations may have its place on Wiktionary. I've long since had a presence on both Wikipedia and Wiktionary, so I'm perfectly alright with sorting information on their appropriate wikis. - Gilgamesh (talk) 10:12, 5 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, I think you are too critical of your own work here; very little referencing is necessary for such an article, as it all follows plainly from descriptions of the various dialects. הסרפד (call me Hasirpad) 23:56, 5 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Now that I think of it (I'm sorry that I don't articulate my thoughts all at once), there may be a place for relatively short illustrative lexical lists on Wikipedia, to demonstrate the differences in phonetic traditions. - Gilgamesh (talk) 10:14, 5 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Delete — I think sources can be easily found and all of the information can be listed at the individual articles and Wiktionary entries for each of the names. However, there's no need to have it all in a list. – Zntrip 08:05, 6 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - while it may have passed AfD six years ago, it would fail today. Consensus has changed to eliminate charts of words in various dialects such as this. Bearian (talk) 21:20, 9 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.