Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of landlocked U.S. states

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Sandstein 08:59, 11 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

List of landlocked U.S. states[edit]

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List of landlocked U.S. states (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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This article is being nominated for deletion because it generally lacks any reliable references, it uses a categorization system (singly, doubly?) that is confusing, and doesn't provide the reader with any usable information. The inherent problem with this list article is that it does not provide context as to what exactly is a landlocked U.S. state and provide backing as to what is or is not a landlocked state with a reference. See also: Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2018_October_31#Category:Landlocked_U.S._states, category up for deletion. Randomeditor1000 (talk) 16:58, 31 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete. The article is supported by but a single source, of questionable reliability (one “Victor Kiprop”, at worldatlas.com). An online search turns up no official, or for that matter any, RS that adopts or expands on the concept of “landlocked U.S. states”. In addition to the sourcing / OR problem, the demarcations set forth in the article are contradicted by both common sense and reliably-sourced facts: For example, the Great Lakes are deemed to be “landlocked” yet they are open to ocean-going vessels by way of the St. Lawrence Seaway, and such vessels routinely transport goods in and out of the freshwater ports of the Great Lakes. To describe states such as Minnesota - or Michigan, which is literally surrounded by water - as “landlocked” simply because they don’t border on salt water, is nonsensical. JohnInDC (talk) 17:43, 31 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU(T) 18:02, 31 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Geography-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU(T) 18:02, 31 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU(T) 18:02, 31 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete—per above, this concept just isn't apparently supported in sources. Imzadi 1979 → 18:22, 31 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. WP:NOTTRIVIA and lacks reliable sources to make it a notable topic. Ajf773 (talk) 18:56, 31 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep or weak delete: Either reliable sources need to be found, and the page revamped to be more easily understood, or possibly deleted. However, I don't want it deleted. Morriswa (Charlotte Allison) (talk) 23:41, 31 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep under the contingency that more reliable sources are found.--AirportExpert (talk) 00:19, 2 November 2018 (UTC)AirportExpert[reply]
  • Keep - this list is making an interesting contribution to Wikipedia's coverage of geography of the United States. Vorbee (talk) 08:38, 2 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Lacks reliable sources. And please people, "It think this is interesting, so we should keep it" is not a valid keep reason. Everything is here because someone thought it interesting FOARP (talk) 15:23, 3 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete The article does not provide reliable sources, sorry! Alex-h (talk) 13:35, 6 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Sourcing is sparse online, but I added a reference to the article. Don't care which way this one goes. SportingFlyer talk 10:47, 7 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - Geography cruft. Carrite (talk) 17:19, 7 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete as cruft. This is not a notable concept as 56% of states are included. I can't even imagine how anyone would find that interesting but that doesn't matter because it is not notable. Dom from Paris (talk) 19:17, 7 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep. Doubly landlocked isn't a confusing category, it's a geographical term that applies to nations or states that are two or more territories away from an ocean or major body of water, whereas nations such as Liechtenstein and Uzbekistan fit that term. Per WP:PRESERVE, I believe I can fix the article to avoid a deletion and solve the problems in this article. Landlocked states is an important category that fits properly into several U.S. geography categories. The category is notable because a quick google search turns up several results, many of which I will add to this article. After I fix this up, I would like to see a relist per WP:HEY. Redditaddict69 (talk) (contribs) 14:08, 9 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    I was unable to find any meaningful sourcing for this concept, as applied to US States, other than that one Worldatlas.com article. If you can find other RSs, please add them. But take care that when you are adding sources, you are not simply adding in websites that mirror or expressly derive from this very article. I've just removed a Revolvy.com source that suffered that defect. Thanks. JohnInDC (talk) 16:09, 9 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. www.worldatlas.com seems like a sufficiently reliable source. And, certainly, you can verify each individual state, for example, Utah.[2] -- RoySmith (talk) 01:20, 10 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment - A single source, of marginal quality, bolstered by synthetically cobbling together passing references one-by-one from (it would appear) up to 50 other unrelated sources, doesn't meet WP:GNG. The only source for this compilation is a one-off article, which has garnered no other amplification, corroboration or commentary. And, as commenters above have noted, the underlying concept of "landlocked", which is descriptive, politically determinative and meaningful when applied to nations themselves (not to mention abundantly sourced, e.g., NY Times, The Economist, The World Bank, United Nations) - is trivial when applied to political subdivisions within a nation. JohnInDC (talk) 03:43, 10 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per the significant coverage in reliable sources.

    The subject passes Wikipedia:Notability#Stand-alone lists, which says, "One accepted reason why a list topic is considered notable is if it has been discussed as a group or set by independent reliable sources, per the above guidelines; notable list topics are appropriate for a stand-alone list." I will show below that "landlocked U.S. states" has been treated as a "a group or set by independent reliable sources".

    Sources

    1. Kiprop, Victor (2018-05-08). "The Doubly Landlocked US States". World Atlas. Archived from the original on 2018-11-10. Retrieved 2018-11-10.

      The article notes:

      Doubly landlocked states refer to the states that have to cross the boundaries of two other states to access the nearest gulf, bay, sea, or ocean. Of the fifty states of the United States, ten are doubly landlocked, 17 states and DC are singly landlocked, while Nebraska is the only triply landlocked state.

    2. Yoder, Rick; Harding, David. Nebraska Curiosities: Quirky Characters, Roadside Oddities & Other Offbeat Stuff. Guilford, Connecticut: Globe Pequot Press. p. 21. ISBN 978-0-7627-4683-5. Retrieved 2018-11-10.

      The book notes:

      A state is considered landlocked if it is not bordered on any side by a ... and body of water (except rivers). Eleven states—Colorado, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Missouri, Nebraska, South Dakota, Utah, Wisconsin, and Wyoming—qualify as doubly landlocked, which means they are surrounded by landlocked states. The emphasis is on “land.” But Nebraska is the only state that can claim to be trebly landlocked, which means all the states surrounding it (Colorado, Kansas, Missouri, Iowa, South Dakota, and Wyoming) are doubly landlocked.

    3. O'Neill, Junella Pusbach (1999). The Great New England Sea Serpent: An Account of Unknown Creatures Sighted by Many Respectable Persons Between 1638 and the Present Day. Camden, Maine: Down East Books. ISBN 978-0-89272-461-1. OCLC 41299254. Retrieved 2018-11-10.

      The book notes:

      In North America, some of the best examples of fossilized plesiosaurs have been discovered in an area that was once a large inland sea (the Western Interior Seal stretching from the Arctic to the Gulf of Mexico and encompassing the now landlocked states of Kansas, Nebraska, Oklahoma, and the Dakotas as well as parts of Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, Minnesota, and Iowa.

    4. Hutton, Thomas (2009). "Energy Policy Act §216:A Power Worth Preserving" (PDF). Environmental Law Institute. Archived from the original (PDF) on 2018-11-10. Retrieved 2018-11-10.

      The article notes:

      BLM lands are located overwhelmingly west of the Mississippi, including much of the arid, landlocked states of Arizona, Nevada, and Utah, and very little of the coastal states of California, Oregon, and Washington.

    5. Wulfsberg, Rolf M.; Lang, Darryl A. (1974). Recreational Boating in the Continental United States, in 1973: The Nationwide Boating Survey. Washington, D.C.: United States Department of Transportation. p. 25. OCLC 973421254. Retrieved 2018-11-10.

      The book notes:

      However, it is notable that California, Rhode Island, and Texas- -all states which are located on maior bodies of water—had low densities, while the landlocked states of Arkansas, Idaho, Kansas, and Mississippi were far above the national average of 39.7 boats per 1,000 residents.

    There is sufficient coverage in reliable sources to allow the subject to pass Wikipedia:Notability#General notability guideline, which requires "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject".

    Cunard (talk) 11:02, 10 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    • I fretted above about synthesizing a list out of passing mentions from 50 unrelated sources, but it looks like the figure may be closer to 150. The concept is trivial, the mentions are trivial, and more sources to support synthesis doesn't make something reliably sourced! The problem becomes even clearer when one contemplates how to meaningfully include these offhand mentions as actual refs in support of a comprehensive “List” article. JohnInDC (talk) 14:42, 10 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. Thank you User:Cunard for the collection of sources, which is handy to have perhaps, but sourcing on non-controversial facts does not need to be extensive. It cannot seriously be disputed whether a given state borders on an ocean or not; excessive footnoting (all footnoting?) should be removed as a matter of editing. This is a basic, gateway, child-accessible type article like those about flags and number of colors in them, which have also come up for deletion (and have been "Kept"). There is apparently some fundamental disagreement about what is encyclopedic. In my opinion, these all are basic to allowing children and adults into understanding about our world. Including learning about the encyclopedia works. These are highly encyclopedic, even central. No purpose is served by deleting such. --Doncram (talk) 19:30, 10 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ "Arizona and USS Arizona: A landlocked state and its devotion to a Navy ship".
  2. ^ "Landlocked Utah's Place Names Have Proved Seaworthy - Utah Department of Heritage and Arts". Utah Department of Heritage and Arts. Retrieved 9 November 2018.
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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