Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of kosher restaurants

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. – Juliancolton | Talk 02:57, 8 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

List of kosher restaurants[edit]

List of kosher restaurants (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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There are literally thousands of kosher restaurants over the whole world, including a few thousand in Israel. I see no reason to single out 24 of them. None of them in Israel. Not to mention that the list contains 2 closed establishments. Deletion was suggested on the talkpage as well, see Talk:List of kosher restaurants. Debresser (talk) 21:45, 29 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (✉) 22:32, 29 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per WP:LISTPURP and WP:CLN. How many actually exist is irrelevant; the reason to single these out is because these are the ones for which we have articles; see Category:Kosher restaurants. And whether a restaurant has since closed does not affect its notability, if it was in fact notable. The entries that don't have articles (and shouldn't) can just be removed. postdlf (talk) 01:00, 30 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I see nothing in WP:LISTPURP and WP:CLN that indicates value of this list. All it says is that lists and categories are not mutually exclusive. That doesn't make a point for the article yet. In this case, the category would be enough. This article doesn't add anything to the category. Debresser (talk) 02:59, 30 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
If they are closed, then they are no longer a kosher restaurant. This is not the category for former kosher restaurants... Debresser (talk) 03:48, 30 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
After some editing, there are only 17 entries left, of which 3 only have some kosher branches, 2 are chains that carry some or mostly kosher products, and 3 are closed. I think the chains with only some kosher branches or products, don't really belong in this list. Per my argument above, closed restaurants also don't. I really don't think we should have this list for the remaining 9 kosher restaurants, or even for 17, for that matter. The category is more than enough for that. Debresser (talk) 03:48, 30 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Companies no longer in business are not automatically deemed non-notable, as per WP:NTEMP. See also WP:OUTOFBUSINESS. North America1000 09:17, 30 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
You don't have an argument that being now closed means it shouldn't be listed, any more than that the dead should be deleted from lists of people. That status can be noted in the list's "description" field. And such annotations, as well as the sortability of the list's table, are what this list provides above and beyond the category (not that this is even necessary to justify keeping the list as well as the category, per WP:NOTDUP). postdlf (talk) 14:06, 30 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Food and drink-related deletion discussions. North America1000 08:51, 30 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Obviously passes WP:LISTN and WP:CLN. The nomination complains that some of the entries are closed. This is not a reason to delete because Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and so has a historical focus. I'm sad to find that the famous Bloom's has closed before I got around to eating there. In its honour I shall start an article about its proprietor. He's dead now but that's not a reason to delete either. "Mitzvah goreret mitzvah". Andrew D. (talk) 09:51, 30 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Companies-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 02:54, 2 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Judaism-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 02:54, 2 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep This is exactly how lists work in Wikipedia. Category:Lists of restaurants includes 94 different articles, including the directly overlapping article for Lists of restaurants, which includes lists that aren't in the category. This list under discussion is a well-defined, encyclopedic, properly sourced list of notable kosher restaurants that would benefit tremendously from expansion, not deletion. Per WP:CLN, the list and the corresponding category should co-exist and be used to expand each other synergistically. Once the literally thousands of kosher restaurants over the whole world, including a few thousand in Israel, all have Wikipedia articles and included on this list, we can consider splitting it up by country. Alansohn (talk) 03:11, 2 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per WP:CLN and Category:Kosher restaurants. While Wikipedia is of course not a directory of restaurants, as Northamerica1000 states normal editing can ensure that this doesn't become some sort of runaway listing. Also, the nomination statement "Not to mention that the list contains 2 closed establishments" shows a surprising lack of understanding that notability is not temporary, from a veteran editor. If we have target links and valid articles, it doesn't matter that the restaurant is closed -- though the target article and list should reflect that. But again none of this a valid reason to delete. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 13:25, 2 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per NOTYELLOW. There is an inestimable number of kosher restaurants that can be included in such a list, and it's no problem to write stubby articles for them so they'll be "notable". I don't see what use this list serves to the encyclopedia other than self-promotion. Yoninah (talk) 13:53, 2 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment – The article is not intended to be a complete listing of every kosher restaurant in the world, it's just for notable ones. Also, the article does not contain "Contact information such as phone numbers, fax numbers and e-mail addresses", which is what would be an actual violation of WP:NOTYELLOW. North America1000 14:15, 2 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete this is not a list of kosher restaurants. This starts off with a few places that happen to serve kosher food. Guess what? Most places serve kosher food. It's a fool's errand to have a list of kosher restaurants, whether they are kosher certified or just places that happen to serve kosher. Wikipedia is not a yellow pages and it's also something that can never work. As someone else posted earlier, are we also going to have a list of Italian restaurants? Sir Joseph (talk) 14:17, 2 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Editors are right that there is quite a lot of indiscriminate crap here: fast food chains that reportedly offer some kosher products, in some locations, or museum/community centres that reportedly have a restaurant or snack bar inside. I've removed all of those. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 15:14, 2 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've also removed the list description that encourages editors to add chains like Dunkin Donuts, etc. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 15:17, 2 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oh, and Sir Joseph's caught one that I missed. Some Italian ices place in Philly that reportedly offers "some" kosher fare. Good catch. yes, it's gotta be notable kosher restaurants, or bust. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 15:39, 2 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with most of the removals. I actually proposed them, as I stated above. However, the museum and community center operate a restaurant, so they should be in the article. After all, there is a restaurant there! I restored them. Debresser (talk) 16:59, 2 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Would you put those articles in Category:Kosher restaurants? postdlf (talk) 18:46, 2 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Well, they are. They have been. And for some time.... Shawn in Montreal (talk) 19:53, 2 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Generally a list and corresponding category should have the same inclusion criteria, such that if an article belongs in a category it also belongs in a list organized around the same topic. Though if anything lists can afford to be broader in inclusion than categories, because lists can annotate more borderline cases or group them separately under headers noting a disputed status or whatever. postdlf (talk) 20:21, 2 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Change to delete: a museum or community center with a non-notable eatery inside doesn't make it a "restaurant." Without a serious pruning, the list runs into precisely the sort of indiscriminate criteria that critics of this list have been pointing out. CLN is not a carte blanche and I want no part in keeping a list that now seems to include every Jewish institution with a lunch counter. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 17:08, 2 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    • Actually, hold on, I do not agree with the nominator's right to include these two non-restaurant establishments as a kind of strawman argument. He's arguing for deletion of the list -- with a lack of understanding that notability is not temporary, and now, trying to force the inclusion of two indiscriminate entries in a list that he wants to see nuked. Very odd. Not quite sure what's going on here, but no, we're not going to include indiscriminate crap at the behest of someone who wants the list deleted. If he well and truly wanted to clean it up or tweak inclusion criteria -- he shouldn't have brought it to Afd in the first place. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 17:27, 2 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per Sir Joseph's and Debresser's rationales in particular. --Khajidha (talk) 17:28, 2 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • ... and he's reverted to adding these two non-restaurant entities, with no response to the issues I've raised above. This is bull. The nominator should not get to shape the very list he wants to delete, particularly when his preferred version pushes the list to WP:INDISCRIMINATE. Revert to strong keep. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 17:36, 2 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment As Debresser points out, this doesn't include any restaurants in Israel, where most restaurants have Rabbanut certification, the most basic form of kashrut certification. We could easily add to this list all the entries under List of restaurants in Israel. Yoninah (talk) 18:50, 2 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
      • I'm not sure if I'm going to vote in this Afd, but no you can not add List of restaurants in Israel - only about roughly 50% of restaurants have Rabbanut certification - many of the existing entries in List of restaurants in Israel don't (or didn't when they existed) have kashrut. This is due to a variety of reasons - ranging from being intrinsically un-kosher (meat and diary, or serving treif - pork or seafood), due to opening on Shabbat), or even nominally Kosher restaurants that don't want Rabbanut inspections which can involve various hassles.Icewhiz (talk) 14:06, 4 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Shawn in Montreal How is this not a reply? Debresser (talk) 18:53, 2 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment As per NYC DOH restaurant inspections, there are 331 Jewish/kosher restaurants in NYC. Does it really make sense to have a list of restaurants by cuisine? Sir Joseph (talk) 14:31, 3 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Well, there are also List of Chinese restaurants and List of Italian restaurants. There are posts on each talk page asking about the validity of the list. I would support a general eradication of such lists per the rationales mentioned here. --Khajidha (talk) 18:40, 3 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Also List of Thai restaurants. --Khajidha (talk) 18:42, 3 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, looking at the "lists of restaurants" navbox, I would advise doing away with virtually everything in the "by cuisine" and "by ethnicity" sections. --Khajidha (talk) 18:46, 3 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
So also deleting Category:Restaurants by type or Category:Ethnic restaurants and all of their subcategories? If so, by what criteria would we then index our articles on restaurants? postdlf (talk) 22:00, 3 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I said nothing about categories, only lists.--Khajidha (talk) 22:16, 3 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
That's why I asked you about how the principle you're advocating would affect the categories that correspond to these lists. postdlf (talk) 22:19, 3 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
this is a list of notable kosher restaurants per Wikipedia's standards, and is not a general list of all kosher restaurants in any region or in the world, nor is it intended to be. It's unclear why people in this discussion keep stating that the article is improper because of the existence of many non-notable kosher restaurants in the world. The list is not meant to list non-notable restaurants. North America1000 23:58, 3 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
It's a pretty clear sign that they have not read the whole discussion before commenting, nor are they familiar with our guidelines and practices regarding lists of articles. postdlf (talk) 01:39, 4 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Or perhaps they disagree with you, like at least another two editors here. Please assume good faith. Debresser (talk) 05:31, 4 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Seems to me that this list (and others like it) fail on "readers over editors" grounds. It does not give any real information, but is only a readout of the state of Wikipedia articles on kosher restaurants at this time. --Khajidha (talk) 14:10, 4 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Debresser: "Assume good faith" does not mean "assume there's a good argument". Commenters do not demonstrate that they have a good argument, or that they have meaningfully considered and participated in the discussion, when they repeat a premise already explained to be incorrect, or they raise a point that has already been rebutted, without presenting a counterargument or even acknowledging that a rebuttal had been made. Unelaborated "disagreement" is then woefully inadequate to fall back upon. postdlf (talk) 15:05, 4 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Khajidha: Please do read WP:LISTPURP (on "navigation" specifically), and WP:CLN, which were cited to in the very first comment in this discussion and are directly on point as to your claim. And look again at the annotations in the list. postdlf (talk) 15:05, 4 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I did read those, the LISTPURP is what clarified for me what the problem I'm seeing with this list is. --Khajidha (talk) 15:42, 4 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Yet you haven't even mentioned its navigational function as a list "of Wikipedia articles on kosher restaurants at this time"; you've instead appeared to express the opinion that we shouldn't have such things, contra LISTPURP and CLN. postdlf (talk) 00:04, 5 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
There isn't much to navigate with a "list" of some 10 out of the hundreds or even thousands of kosher restaurants that exist. The article should be called "A very partial, embarrassing so, not usable for anything practical, list of a few kosher establishments". Debresser (talk) 06:38, 5 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Which could be handled by adding "For articles on individual kosher restaurants, see: Category:Kosher restaurants" to the kosher restaurant article, with the added benefit of avoiding the implication (inherent in the simple title "list of kosher restaurants") that this list is comprehensive rather than just a list of those few restaurants that we happen to have articles on.--Khajidha (talk) 11:31, 5 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
All of which is just to say you disagree with existing consensus and guidelines regarding the navigational use of such indexes of articles (and yes, it is about navigating our articles) as having value and being complementary to categories. Which is an opinion that is not specific to this list. postdlf (talk) 14:09, 5 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
You feeling the need to reply to everybody who disagrees with your point of view, including repeating the same thing over and over, is becoming a bit stifling for the discussion. Debresser (talk) 15:34, 5 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
No problem. We all do that some times. Please don't remove your vote just because of that. Even though you disagree with me, but I value your input. Debresser (talk) 13:41, 4 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
You're very kind. No, I honestly don't know what's best in this case. I'm a big proponent of CLN here yet the fact that virtually every restaurant in Israel -- save, I guess, for those catering to Arab Israelis who are halal? -- would have some form of kosher designation, apparently, gives me pause. BTW, if this list goes, one of us should nominate the category for deletion, for as we know, the criteria for "definingness" on a category is even higher than a list. Postdlf sort of alluded to that above and I can't see a category without this list. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 13:51, 4 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
One way it seems to be handled in other lists of "national" or "ethnic" cuisine restaurants is to limit them to restaurants featuring that cuisine outside the country of origin: for example List of Chinese restaurants, per definition at Chinese restaurant that it's "an establishment that serves Chinese cuisine outside China." Otherwise the designation is not meaningful; a restaurant in China that serves Chinese cuisine is just a restaurant in China. Whether that treatment is appropriate for kosher food and restaurants in Israel is not a question we need to resolve here, and again it should be resolved the same way for the category as well as the list. postdlf (talk) 15:11, 4 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Israel-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 13:58, 4 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
And since the status of restaurants in the Jewish homeland has been raised above in what seems to me to be a relevant point, I've added it to the above deletion sorting page, too. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 14:00, 4 May 2017 (UTC) [reply]
  • Keep - if there is a list of Japanese restaurants (or any other cuisine class), there should be a list of Jewish Kosher restaurants. This is a cuisine class unto to itself - regardless of the religious origins (which in and of themselves make this improtant to diners) Kashrut involves many constraints that make this class unique - just like List of vegetarian restaurants.Icewhiz (talk) 14:10, 4 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - the list is small now, but over time, new notable kosher restaurants will be added to the category. When they are added, they deserve to have a list as much as any other notable category items. Benji the Pen (talk) 16:47, 5 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. Lists of restaurants are fine so long as each list entry is notable in its own right and does not appear to be written as a business directory or a restaurant guide, that can be dealt with by a cleanup. Ajf773 (talk) 20:40, 5 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep This is a list of notable kosher restaurants rather than a list of all kosher restaurants. Its main purpose seems to be helping readers find articles on various kosher restaurants. This is compliant with WP:LISTPURP, so I don't think a deletion is warranted. Spirit of Eagle (talk) 06:24, 6 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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