Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of events of the DC Universe

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 09:50, 16 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

List of events of the DC Universe[edit]

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This list fails several important Wikipedia guidelines. The most important being that it's completely WP:INDISCRIMINATE with a WP:MADEUP and arbitrary grouping of information. What constitutes an "event in the DC universe"? The lead provides some original research about what an event means, and even then it's completely unhelpful as it defines an event as "stories with a major impact".

These problems cannot be fixed by adding sources. (And at this point there are none. Zero.) Primary sources aren't sufficient to meet WP:V and WP:N. And while there might be third-party sources to verify individual events, there are no third-party sources to WP:verify notability of the group as a whole (see WP:LISTN), let alone which members should belong here or not. Because the entire concept is a WP:MADEUP grouping that no third-parties have discussed in direct detail.

It's also a WP:CONTENTFORK of an article called DC Universe, which is also completely unsourced. I think that article actually has a chance of being improved though, unlike this list which has zero chance. Shooterwalker (talk) 23:32, 2 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Summary of deletion rationale: Basically, the scope of the topic is original research, with no third party sources and no clear criteria for inclusion, and basically duplicates content at DC Universe. (Sorry I was trying to anticipate the objections / discussion.) Shooterwalker (talk) 01:45, 9 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Comics and animation-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 01:53, 4 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 01:54, 4 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Literature-related deletion discussions. —Shooterwalker (talk) 14:58, 6 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions. —Shooterwalker (talk) 14:58, 6 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Keep pending a rewrite of the nom which actually articulates a cause for deletion more than it throws around various WP:VAGUEWAVEs. So it's a list of fictional events without clear inclusion criteria or third-party sourcing, that replicates content in another article? If so, say that, then. Jclemens (talk) 16:17, 6 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- It seems you understood my nomination. I was just trying to anticipate the various (and inevitable) objections. Sorry if I got too wordy. It comes down to sourcing problems, and an ill defined topic that's an indiscriminate and arbitrary fork. Shooterwalker (talk) 16:39, 6 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Delete With no references at all, the article doesn't meet the criteria of verifiability since there are no references independent of the subject from third-party sources, and, because of that, it also doesn't have notability. And while the article does not need to meet the criteria of the general notability guideline since the article is supposedly a list, I also don't think that it meets the criteria of appropriate topics for lists because the list falls into what Wikipedia is not by being an indiscriminate collection of information and an unnecessary content fork of the article DC Universe. Also, the article is mainly written with an in-universe perspective that lacks real-world perspective to justify such trivial details for a list-only article. As a navigational aid, it is also unneeded because there is already a template that has that function, {{DC events}}, and also a category, DC Comics storylines. In my opinion, this article falls into the criteria of reasons for deletion and I don't see a good reason to keep it around. Jfgslo (talk) 18:39, 6 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Ron Ritzman (talk) 01:20, 9 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Lists should be useful to readers. To someone who is not already a fan this is impossible to understand. Better to write an article on the general topic for us non-fans and have a category or template for these items. Fans do not need them explained. Steve Dufour (talk) 03:06, 9 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
This really isn't even what the title says it is; it's just a list of story arcs and/or limited series and/or crossovers. postdlf (talk) 14:34, 9 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Keep The list is an index to our numerous articles about major DC storylines such as Crisis on Infinite Earths. These have great notability and so there would be no difficulty sourcing each and every entry if anyone doubted them. Lists are well established as navigational aids within Wikipedia and are not inferior or superseded by categories or templates, as suggested by others here. Lists are superior in that they are able to support references and other supporting content, whereas categories and templates are not so capable. It is therefore absurd to criticise the list for a weakness when the competing formats are even weaker. Please see the guideline WP:CLS which explains this further and which supports the continued existence of this list. Colonel Warden (talk) 19:05, 10 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Keep as both notable and useful. Plenty of references exist for the concepts of events and crossovers in comics (see this and this and a list of events in the DC universe is a perfectly natural extension of that concept per summary style. This is a different topic from DC Universe, which should deal primarily with the cosmology and fictional description of the DC Universe, and I don't think there is any real question as to inclusion criteria - DC signposts their events pretty clearly. --Cerebellum (talk) 21:58, 10 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - per above. dposse (talk) 02:16, 12 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Delete- with zero sources this article fails our verifiability policy and "event" is such a vague word that there can be no discriminate treatment of this topic. It can only ever be whatever the fanboys declare to be a "significant event". Reyk _YO! 06:49, 12 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- comment Sources can be placed in there, that isn't much of a big deal. And "event" is what DC says it is, not what "fanboys" do. dposse (talk) 23:26, 12 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  - The problem is there isn't a source in the world that verifies that these are "events", let alone quotes from DC. It really is just original research. Some storylines that fanboys want to highlight. Shooterwalker (talk) 00:27, 13 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    - There isn't a source in the world, huh? We're on the internet, we can finds sources from all over the globe. ironic, huh? Let's take a upcoming comic. Does the Boston Herald count as a reliable enough source? [1] At Comic-Con, these large publications are discussed before thousands of people. Is that notable enough? Again, its not what "fanboys" say. It's what the multi-billion dollar comic book industry does and says. dposse (talk) 03:09, 16 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.