Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of active drive-in theaters

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. –Juliancolton | ^Talk 00:14, 27 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

List of active drive-in theaters[edit]

North America-centric list, used mainly as a linkfarm to link to nearly every drive-in's website. Minimal attempts have been made to source the article or remove the huge number of links. While there are plenty of theater directories online, most of them are based on user-submitted information and therefore not reliable, so I have no idea how a list of this sort could even be sourced. Furthermore, this list seems to be a big violation of WP:NOT#DIR and I don't see how it's any different from, say, a list of store locations (which is also not allowed per WP:NOT#DIR). I'll admit that I'm interested in drive-in theaters myself, but I'm not going to let WP:ILIKEIT stand in the way of a list that can't easily be sourced. Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • ^{(Many otters • One hammer • HELP)} 17:38, 19 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Film-related deletion discussions. —PC78 (talk) 18:15, 19 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Encyclopedic and notable. Many reliable and independent sources can be found for drive in theaters in general as well as for each of the few surviving ones, if the nominator would check online and print sources. Is it claimed that any of them are not really drive in theaters? Edison (talk) 21:42, 19 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep The subject is extremely notable because drive-in plays a distinctive role in U.S. popular culture. Sourcing would not be a problem, and the link farm element of the article can be cleaned up with editing. Pastor Theo (talk) 21:48, 19 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep I don't like the link farm element either but the subject is notable, no question about it. A quick search shows that sourcing each entry should not be a problem, 1.--J^mundo 23:24, 19 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Strong delete per WP:NOTDIR. Comments above seem to be confusing this with Drive-in theater, which is a seperate article and indeed a notable subject. But there is no inherant notability in a list of this kind, and it's basically just a linkfarm which violates WP:EL and most likely WP:LIST as well. PC78 (talk) 22:21, 20 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete, Wikipedia is not a directory. Stifle (talk) 10:08, 21 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. A directory of things. Arguing that drive-in theatres are notable is rather silly, as Drive-in theatre is not up for deletion. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 11:17, 21 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep as part of the enyclopedic treatment on the topic drive-in theatres. Article needs a better lede though. Hiding T 13:30, 21 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Note I started to fix the article getting rid of the "link farm" element and added a reliable source to each entry, please see List_of_active_drive-in_theaters#Florida. --J^mundo 15:15, 21 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep, given keep and delete as the only options, I believe it has enough merit for the keep. I do agree it doesn't fit well in it's current format, but might be saved with heavy editing. Idea - is there another wiki that this article might be more at home at? I could see that linked from the Drive-In Theatres article, pretty much making everyone happy. --Reverend Loki (talk) 15:22, 21 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep From the creation of the original incarnation in New Jersey to today, the drive-in saw a meteoric rise and a spectacular decline. Remaining locations are a notable topic. Any issues with content and links or possible US-centrism should be addressed in the article, not by deletion. The cleanup that has already started is a step in the right direction. Alansohn (talk) 19:29, 21 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per nom and PC78. This is basically a directory and a linkfarm. A list (or category, or both) of notable drive-in theatres might be appropriate, but a list of links to drive-in theatres is most definitly not. I'd be willing to reconsider if this can be managed only through third-party sources and a degree of discrimination is involved in determining whats in the list. This is apparantly notability in that they are a dying pasttime, but I'm not convinced that a list is the best way to document this. Them From Space 03:38, 22 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Again, I'm working on the list eliminating the linkfarm element and searching for reliable sources to establish notability, see the reference section.--J^mundo 04:18, 22 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep...Editor:Rev.Loki makes a good point. While respecting Wikipedia's status as an online encyclopedia, WP has become a source of information for millions of visitors. And some of WP's content is fringe information that is not easily available or found elsewhere. --Buster7 (talk) 10:41, 22 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. Textbook violation of WP:NOT#DIR. — sephiroth bcr ^(converse) 09:15, 23 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

VERY STRONG KEEP: List is very informative but needs more sources and expansion. Drive-ins are part of American history but they're a dying breed. Historical subjects should NEVER be deleted. TomCat4680 (talk) 12:05, 26 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
How is the Moonlight Outdoor Theatre more of a historical subject than the Mac's convenience store at the end of the street where I live? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 12:39, 26 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Because convenience stores aren't part of Americana like drive-ins are. Do you know anyone who's lost their virginity in a convenience store? Or who rounds up there friends on a warm summer night to go to the 7-11? or who sits on their roof with a radio so they can look at the Slurpee machine? There's no comparison. They're just as historical as any old house or warfield. TomCat4680 (talk) 13:36, 26 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
So do you have any sources that indicate that any of these specific drive-ins are a significant part of Americana, or are you simply arguing that we shouldn't delete Drive-in theatre? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 14:15, 26 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Change to merge: Well lets merge this article into that one then. It'd definitely improve that article. I'm AGAINST deletions but FOR mergers. TomCat4680 (talk) 18:54, 26 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Merge what? An exhaustive directory of every existing drive-in theatre is no more useful there than here. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 18:57, 26 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Many of the surviving drive-ins are notable, the list already includes specific sources for some entries and more sources are available [1]. --J^mundo 15:34, 26 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Can you offer something more specific than a shotgun Google News search? Specifically, what sources would you use? What would this article look like if it used those sources? The topic of historical drive-ins has potential, but I don't see how this list is a start on it. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 15:43, 26 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Check out List_of_active_drive-in_theaters#Florida, where each drive-in has a RS. I understand the main concern about WP:NOT#DIR but this can be fix by editing and sourcing each Drive-In. If some drive-ins are not notable (I doubt it) they can be removed from the list. I'm waiting for the result of this AfD to continue replacing the "link-farm" element with reliable sources. --J^mundo 15:49, 26 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That's just a directory of theatres, though. I'm not asking you to add inline sources; I'm asking how you'd use those inline sources. A directory of drive-ins isn't improved by adding a single news story that mentions that drive-in to each listing. How do you intend to write an article? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 15:53, 26 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Stop arguing with people. You had your say now step back and let others have theirs. I know I'm NOT changing my vote again. TomCat4680 (talk) 19:07, 26 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well, okay. I was hoping you'd spend a bit of your time trying to bring me to your viewpoint. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 19:10, 26 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Minds are like parachutes, they work best when open. Why don't you try to look on the other side of the coin? I know US 23 Drive-In theater is pretty notable for me anyway. I saw Back to the Future and Ghostbusters there when i was 5 years old. I saw the Flintstones there when it was jammed packed on it 2nd night. I saw Wayne's World there every night for 2 weeks straight. All of these on the old screen that was burned down by arsonists. and back when the playground was still there. TomCat4680 (talk) 19:14, 26 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Answer my question or address my assumptions, then. Currently, this is just a directory of every drive-in theatre that exists, and we don't do that here on Wikipedia. How do you intend to use this directory to write an article? What would this article look like? Not everything that is important to a person needs an article or even a list entry; everyone has significant memories attached to a childhood home, but we don't (and shouldn't!) have List of houses. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 19:24, 26 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well no, unless a house is on the National Register of Historic Places, or a state or local historical listing. TomCat4680 (talk) 19:31, 26 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Is this list the list of some sort of register of historical drive-ins, or just a list of every single existing example of a certain kind of business establishment? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 19:35, 26 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Its NOT just that though. Its MEMORIES. Its AMERICANA. TomCat4680 (talk) 19:42, 26 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

According to whom? There are registers of historic homes, guides to noteworthy restaurants (and that includes diners, another bit of Americana), registers of historic places, etc. This, on the other hand, is a list of every single case of a certain sort of establishment, founded on the idea that all examples of that establishment are important...somehow. Are you proposing we turn this into a list of historic drive-ins; if so, based on what standard? If not, what standard does this list have other than being a directory of things that exist? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 19:49, 26 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well I didn't say change it to anything. What I said was merge into Drive-in theatre. I don't see how its passes the so called paradoxial rule not directory. it does say however "there is nothing wrong with having lists if their entries are famous because they are associated with or significantly contributed to the list topic" Its notable because drive-ins are a dying breed. In fact they're on life support due to digital media's growing popularity. TomCat4680 (talk) 19:57, 26 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It's a list of things that exist, with no more information than where they are and what their website is (if any). That's not good. I'm wondering what content you would propose we add to the article to make it something other than a bare list of things. Whether these things are a dying breed (there are hundreds on this list alone) or particularly American (we have dozen plus lists of Australian and Canadian drive-ins) doesn't answer that question. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 20:03, 26 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Go ahead and add every single one worldwide. I'm all for that. Turn the external links into inline citations though. TomCat4680 (talk) 20:08, 26 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not proposing we do that. It's not any more useful for being international. Do you have any sort of proposal on how this can be something other than a bare list of things that exist? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 20:22, 26 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've answered that question twice already. Merge into Drive-in theatre, turn external links into in-line citations, and expand into prose so its NOT just a list, its a high quality, informative, educational article for anyone interested in vintage places. TomCat4680 (talk) 20:26, 26 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

What sort of prose do you propose we add? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 20:29, 26 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Stop moving my text over. I propose information about the life of the theater. For example, here's one:

US 23 Twin Drive-In (a.k.a. US 23 Highway Theater), located at #### Fenton Rd. in Mundy Township, Michigan, just outside of Flint, is currently the only active theater in Genesee County. It was opened in 1951 and has operated continuously ever since. It has been family run by the Worthington family for its entire existence but since Lou Worthington's death on February 18, 2009, it has been up for lease. It originally featured a large wooden screen with US 23 in large red letters, but was burned down in the mid 1990s (1996 I think) by arsonists who were never caught and replaced by a standard metal screen.

Everything there is sourced to a Flint Journal article , a major newspaper for the region that unaffiliated with the owners and an unaffiliated fan site. Is that encyclopedic enough for you? TomCat4680 (talk) 20:41, 26 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

So what would the criteria for inclusion in the list be, then? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 20:51, 26 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

What part of it don't you understand? Its exists and its well sourced. What's your criteria for deletion, in your own words, without pointing to a policy or cutting and pasting from it? TomCat4680 (talk) 20:56, 26 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm just trying to understand the topic of the list. If it's just a directory of establishments that exist and some basic directory data for each (ownership, address, date of founding, etc.), then I am opposed to having this list, as it's merely a directory of establishments that exist. I understand that there's an argument that these are historical or that this list illustrates something, and I'm trying to understand how. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 21:03, 26 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Okay it meets WP:NOTABILITY via guidelines a and b

gigantic copy-paste removed for readability

The Flint Journal article is a reliable source because it is a major regional newspaper. The information is verifiable. The fan site is independent and unaffiliated of the subject. Therefore WP:NOTDIRECTORY fails here.

Understand now? TomCat4680 (talk) 21:57, 26 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

What part of WP:NOTDIR says anything about verifiability? We could verify similar facts about every Pizza Hut in the United States, and Pizza Hut is certainly notable/a part of American culture/etc. I'm trying to understand why these are different, what makes this list not a directory. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 22:05, 26 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've answered your question several times already. Stop asking it over and over and stop modifying my posts. TomCat4680 (talk) 22:14, 26 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've only modified them for readability, which is already strained here.

Let me lay out my argument, and see if you can point out a major flaw in it. Currently, this is a list of every single extant instance of a sort of establishment. Lists of establishments, regardless of whether the sort of establishment is notable or not, are generally inappropriate article subjects. Some ways to fix that are showing individual notability for each member of the list (by WP:GNG's standards, reliable, multiple, substantial, etc.), or showing some sort of topic and reasonable criteria that are not just "every extant business of such-and-such sort", or turning the list into a navigation tool. Hell, even a convincing IAR argument about this directory would work, but IAR arguments almost always need to be Really Good to keep people from just IAIARing.

Now, almost all of the keeps up top are "Keep, drive-in theatres are notable" which doesn't explain why we need a directory of drive-ins when we make a policy of not having directories of businesses. I'm asking you (or anyone else really) to address how this can be fixed or why we need this directory. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 22:21, 26 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Fifth time you've asked the same question. I've answered it all five times, so has everyone else that voted keep. Ask another one now. TomCat4680 (talk) 22:38, 26 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Disappointing, but okay. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 22:43, 26 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This AFD has been open for 7 days. I propose a keep and close per WP:SNOW and WP:HEY. TomCat4680 (talk) 19:09, 26 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Strong keep Re: North America-centric list, used mainly as a linkfarm to link to nearly every drive-in's website. Minimal attempts have been made to source the article or remove the huge number of links. this is something which can be done by article improvement, we have no WP:Deadline. Ikip (talk) 20:47, 26 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.