Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of VTV dramas broadcast in 2024

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus‎. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 23:19, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

List of VTV dramas broadcast in 2024[edit]

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Seems like a similar situation to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of television programmes broadcast by Vietnam Television (VTV). Citations provide coverage of individual shows, but do not pretend to cover VTV dramas broadcast in 2024 as a set, as required by WP:LISTN. _signed,Rosguill ^talk 20:28, 13 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Television and Vietnam. _signed,Rosguill ^talk 20:28, 13 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 21:19, 13 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete This is a WP:NOTTVGUIDE WP:WALLEDGARDEN that pretty much reads more as a VTV WP:PROMO than a neutral article. Nate • (chatter) 22:43, 13 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete this year and every article in years before that. Every single VTV drama could be summarised on one article. We shouldn't keep the literal showing of dates and timeslot because Wikipedia is not a TV guide. Ajf773 (talk) 10:20, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep per Wikipedia:Stand-alone lists#Notability, which says: Lists that fulfill recognized informational, navigation, or development purposes often are kept regardless of any demonstrated notability.

The list fulfills informational and navigation purposes.
The list passes Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lists#Purposes of lists:
1. It meets Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lists#Information, which says, The list may be a valuable information source. This is particularly the case for a structured list. Examples would include lists organized chronologically, grouped by theme, or annotated lists.
  This structured list is a chronological ordering of all the Vietnam Television dramas that have been released in 2024. It is an annotated list that has the dramas' broadcast dates, title, number of episodes, producers, cast and crew, theme song(s), genre, and notes.
  An editor supporting deletion said, "Every single VTV drama could be summarised on one article." A list containing all VTV dramas can coexist with a list containing VTV dramas broadcast in 2024. The lists serve different purposes. To avoid article size issues, a list of all dramas would necessarily have to cover less information than a list covering a specific year. A list containing only the dramas broadcast in 2024 is useful to readers, giving them an annotated list of what was broadcast that year.
  - Additionally, Wikipedia:Stand-alone lists#Titles links to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (lists)#Long (split) list naming recommendations, which discusses the conventions for splitting a long list into multiple sub-articles. The long list here would be "List of VTV dramas", while the sub-articles are "List of VTV dramas broadcast in 2023", "List of VTV dramas broadcast in 2024", etc.
    The guideline gives the example, For example, TV show season lists are named in the form "Show title (season 1)", although the present guideline would have preferred "Show title: season 1" (the use of colons in the titles of works to indicate a subtitle, as in Star Trek: The Next Generation, is a likely reason for this variance).
    The split by year is similar here. The split by year is a valid spinout to ensure the main list does not get too long.
2. It meets Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lists#Navigation, which says, Lists which contain internally linked terms (i.e., wikilinks) serve, in aggregate, as natural tables of contents and indexes of Wikipedia. This is an index of all the Vietnam Television dramas that have been released in 2024.
  Vietnam Television (VTV) produces Vietnamese-language dramas. Most English Wikipedia editors do not speak Vietnamese. This is why Category:Vietnam Television original programming has only 10 articles on television series, while the Vietnamese Wikipedia's version of the category, vi:Category:Chương trình truyền hình trên VTV, has many more. Wikipedia:Systemic bias discusses this, noting that As a result of systemic bias, Wikipedia underrepresents the perspectives of people in the Global South, which includes Vietnam. Although these articles do not exist on the English Wikipedia, they exist on the Vietnamese Wikipedia. Taking the 2023 list as an example (vi:Danh sách phim VTV phát sóng năm 2023), there are detailed, well-sourced articles on 2023 VTV dramas such as vi:Không ngại cưới, chỉ cần một lý do and vi:Gia đình mình vui bất thình lình. There are not corresponding English Wikipedia articles because there are not enough English Wikipedia editors with the interest and Vietnamese-language skills to create them.
WP:NOTTVGUIDE supports keeping this list because it is a "historically significant program list" from an influential broadcaster watched by millions in Vietnam.
WP:NOTTVGUIDE says: Electronic program guides. An article on a broadcaster should not list upcoming events, current promotions, current schedules, format clocks, etc., although mention of major events, promotions or historically significant program lists and schedules may be acceptable.
The policy says that historically significant program lists and schedules may be acceptable. 2023–24 United States network television schedule exists because it is a "historically significant program list".
VTV and its dramas are highly influential in Vietnam, so a list of its dramas broadcast in 2024 is historically significant. Vietnam Television (VTV) is a national broadcaster that is watched by millions in Vietnam (source 1 and source 2). This book from Routledge underscores the historical significance by demonstrating that VTV dramas have been the subject of academic study and newspaper reviews:
The success of imported series naturally urged Vietnamese television to make its own dramas. Producers were also prompted to focus on ordinary themes instead of repeating the old mantra of socialist heroism. Foreign soap operas thus enacted a new practice that barely existed in the previous history of Vietnamese television: competition. In 1994, three years after the success of The Rich Also Cry, the first Vietnamese television dramas were broadcast every weekend on a new program entitled Culture and Art on Sunday [Văn Nghệ Chủ Nhật]. One episode per week was an extremely low frequency for the genre of television drama but was already seen as a significant success of national television. A report in Lao Động newspaper in 1994 commented that the birth of Culture and Art on Sunday ‘demonstrated an audacious effort by VTV3 to produce quick and cheap dramas, given an extreme lack of money, technologies, and human resources’ (Tô, 1995). Major topics of Vietnamese television dramas in the late 1990s were the incompatibility between love and poverty, the desire of youngsters to escape obsolete social and cultural norms, or the bitter nostalgia of socialist veterans in market time. Just like soap operas anywhere else in the world, money emerged as the cause and solution of almost all problems. ‘Serving the audience’ also became a common concept in many reviews of television dramas that appeared abundantly in the culture section of many newspapers in the 1990s. Viewers were now treated as valued customers and ultimate judges, instead of merely passive receivers of statecontrolled messages. With the arrival of television dramas, the integration of market regulation and political duty became the defining dilemma of television in Vietnam.
Cunard (talk) 11:36, 19 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comment But that doesn't address the concern of why these articles need to be broken out year-by-year. That's not normal practice for a television network list and is PROMO beyond a reasonable doubt since it singles out only one network's programming in a genre for a single year. I have no issue with a VTV programming article containing the network's full output; I have issues with it being presented in this manner. Nate • (chatter) 18:39, 21 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:Categories, lists, and navigation templates#Advantages of a list notes that lists can be "formatted in many different ways" and "can be embellished with annotations". These advantages are why breaking the articles out year-by-year has several advantages over a single list. A single list would be unable to present the information in the way the list currently does. A single list would be overly lengthy. A single list would hinder the reader's ability to easily find information.
The year-by-year list presents on a single page all the dramas that aired that year, grouping the dramas by the channel they aired on and further chronologically sorting them by when they were broadcast. It allows readers to easily find out what dramas aired that year, what genres were the most prevalent that year, what those dramas were about, and who starred in those dramas that year. It would cumbersome for readers to find this information in a single list crammed with information about decades of VTV television programs from a dozen channels.
Regarding I have no issue with a VTV programming article containing the network's full output, I would prefer a standalone list. But per Wikipedia:Deletion policy#Alternatives to deletion, merging this list into a VTV programming article would be far superior to deletion as it would retain this "historically significant program list".
VTV is an influential broadcaster watched by millions in Vietnam. VTV dramas have been the subject of academic study and newspaper reviews. The policies and guidelines support retaining this list of VTV dramas. From WP:NOTTVGUIDE, historically significant program lists and schedules may be acceptable. From Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lists#Information, The list may be a valuable information source. This is particularly the case for a structured list. Examples would include lists organized chronologically, grouped by theme, or annotated lists. From Wikipedia:Article size, a list or table should be kept as short as is feasible for its purpose and scope. From Wikipedia:Stand-alone lists#Appropriate topics for lists, be prepared to explain why you feel this list contributes to the state of human knowledge.
Regarding the "PROMO" concern, the list is neutrally written. I see no violation of Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not#Wikipedia is not a soapbox or means of promotion. The policy says Information about companies and products must be written in an objective and unbiased style, free of puffery. I find the list written in an "objective and unbiased style, free of puffery". Cunard (talk) 11:25, 22 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ✗plicit 23:40, 20 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep per Wikipedia:Stand-alone lists#Notability as thoroughly analyzed and discussed by Cunard. As Cunard points out, WP:NOTTVGUIDE clearly doesn't apply here. --A. B. ^{(talk • contribs • global count)} 20:49, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Sock creation. Inherently against WP:NOTTVGUIDE. I don't find Cunard's argument convincing and would also be in favor of deleting 2023–24 United States network television schedule. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 21:08, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. Seconding Pppery and nom. I don't see how this is plausibly useful for informational or navigational purposes. -- asilvering (talk) 04:17, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: The subject passes Wikipedia:Notability#Stand-alone lists, which says, "One accepted reason why a list topic is considered notable is if it has been discussed as a group or set by independent reliable sources, per the above guidelines; notable list topics are appropriate for a stand-alone list." I will show below that "VTV dramas" has been treated as a "a group or set by independent reliable sources".
Sources
1. "Drama trên phim Việt giờ vàng VTV: Từ bom tấn thành 'bom xịt'" [Vietnamese drama series during prime time VTV: From blockbuster to 'flop']. 2sao (in Vietnamese). 2023-05-31. Archived from the original on 2024-02-27. Retrieved 2024-02-27.
  VietNamNet is a sister newspaper of 2sao. The article discusses 13 VTV drama series (the names are translated from Vietnamese to English): Living with Mother-in-law, Come Home, Baby, When a Widower Cryed, Let's Say Love, The Blossoming Apple Tree, The Taste of Love, Under the Shade of the Tree of Happiness, Don't Make Mom Angry, My Family Suddenly Happy, Life Is Still Beautiful, Don't Talk About Love, Life is Beautiful Stars, and Is Life Still Beautiful.
2. "Phim truyền hình Việt ngày càng hút khán giả" [Vietnamese television dramas are increasingly attracting audiences]. vi:Dân tộc và Phát triển (in Vietnamese). 2021-08-10. Archived from the original on 2024-02-27. Retrieved 2024-02-27.
  The article discusses 14 VTV series (the names are translated from Vietnamese to English): The Taste of Friendship, Love the perch, Say words of love, Flower season returns, 11 months and 5 days, The Destiny of Money, Living with Mother-in-Law, The Arbitrator, A Lifetime of Resentment, Birth and Death, I Miss Someone, Quynh doll, Go Home, Baby, and Someone Else's Girl.
3. Hồ, Hương (2023-12-27). "Những phim truyền hình Việt giờ vàng VTV ấn tượng năm 2023" [Impressive VTV prime-time Vietnamese dramas in 2023]. vi:Dân trí (báo) (in Vietnamese). Archived from the original on 2024-02-27. Retrieved 2024-02-27.
  The article discusses three VTV dramas.
4. "3 bộ phim VTV giờ vàng "gây sốt" nhất 2022: Lấy nước mắt triệu khán giả!" [3 most "feverish" prime time VTV movies of 2022: Bringing tears to millions of viewers!]. vi:24h (trang web) (in Vietnamese). 2023-01-01. Archived from the original on 2024-02-27. Retrieved 2024-02-27.
  The article discusses three VTV dramas.
5. "Top những bộ phim hot nhất giờ vàng VTV năm 2022" [Top hottest VTV prime time series in 2022]. vi:Thiếu niên Tiền phong và Nhi đồng (tuần báo) (in Vietnamese). 2022-12-26. Archived from the original on 2024-02-27. Retrieved 2024-02-27.
  The article discusses three VTV dramas
6. Châu, Khương (2020-02-18). "The best new Vietnamese television series in early 2020 on VTV. Successor, Don't Make Me Forget, Balanha Motel, Red Sand, Love and Ambition... are new dramas that will be broadcast on VTV in early 2020" [Loạt phim truyền hình Việt Nam mới đầu năm 2020 hay nhất trên VTV. Người nối nghiệp, Đừng bắt em phải quên, Nhà trọ Balanha, Cát đỏ, Tình yêu và tham vọng... là những cái bộ phim truyền hình mới sẽ được lên sóng VTV trong đầu năm 2020.]. Thời Đại (in Vietnamese). Archived from the original on 2024-02-27. Retrieved 2024-02-27.
  Thời Đại is a foreign affairs magazine. The article discusses five VTV dramas.
WP:NOTTVGUIDE
Regarding 2023–24 United States network television schedule and Lists of United States network television schedules, there was a strong consensus in the 2012 AfD Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The US network TV schedule articles (2nd nomination) that WP:NOTTVGUIDE supported retaining these articles. Multiple editors quoted WP:NOTTVGUIDE's "historically significant program list" wording. To disregard this longstanding consensus would require an RfC at WT:NOT to remove this wording.

The content from a sockpuppet is no longer in the list.

The list was created by a sockpuppet in July 2023 with two entries: No Line Battle and Sunshine. Neither of these entries remain in the list, which has been completely rewritten and expanded by other editors including the established editor Mrgoahead (talk · contribs), who has written most of the article.

Multi-page list articles
Wikipedia:Stand-alone lists#Titles links to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (lists)#Long (split) list naming recommendations, which discusses the conventions for "splitting a long list into multiple sub-articles". The long list here is "List of VTV dramas", while the sub-articles are "List of VTV dramas broadcast in 2024", "List of VTV dramas broadcast in 2023", etc.
The guideline gives the example, "For example, TV show season lists are named in the form "Show title (season 1)", although the present guideline would have preferred "Show title: season 1" (the use of colons in the titles of works to indicate a subtitle, as in Star Trek: The Next Generation, is a likely reason for this variance)."
The split by year is similar here. The split by year is a valid spinout to ensure the main list does not get too long.
Cunard (talk) 09:32, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Cunard, I don't understand why you're bringing up the "historically significant program list" thing here. Are you trying to argue that List of VTV dramas broadcast in 2024 is historically significant? -- asilvering (talk) 17:39, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"VTV dramas broadcast in 2024" is a subset of "VTV dramas", which is historically significant owing to VTV and its dramas being highly influential in Vietnam. "VTV dramas broadcast in 2024" is a spinout to ensure the main list does not get too long. Cunard (talk) 10:46, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Like for Cunard said and I'm also knowledgeable in Television. If this article is deleted, the remaining for list of VTV dramas should be deleted. In 2024 alone, there were works on air, is Meet You on a Sunny Day (Vietnamese: Gặp em ngày nắng). The Vietnamese Wikipedia has been article for deletion for this article and the result was keep. Thanks! Mohammed07102007 (talk) 13:41, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Relisting to assess additional sources provided in the discussion.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 22:58, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep due to the highly persuasive submission by Cunard — MaxnaCarta ( 💬 • 📝 ) 01:42, 28 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Agree with Pppery, OP, and asilvering. I would support this article once the season/year was over and the programming was confirmed as having aired. But until then, this sits rather closely to WP:NOTNEWS and certainly WP:NOTTVGUIDE. I understand the importance of these programs, but the importance is not obvious without proper explanation and/or contextualization within the article itself. Indeed, the explanation here of the programming's importance is functionally longer, and certainly more in-depth, than the content of the article as a whole. Anwegmann (talk) 03:03, 28 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: New arguments for deletion—namely WP:NOTNEWS and the article's flaws—have been raised after my previous responses. I will address them below.
WP:NOTNEWS is not violated
WP:NOTNEWS redirects to Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not#Wikipedia is not a newspaper. The section says Ensure that Wikipedia articles are not and lists four items. I reviewed each item to demonstrate that this list does not violate the policy:
1. Original reporting. Wikipedia should not offer first-hand news reports on breaking stories. – this article is not "original reporting". It is a list of television dramas.
2. News reports. Wikipedia considers the enduring notability of persons and events. – this article is not a news report. Enduring notability has been shown through academic sources and newspaper reviews.
3. Who's who. Even when an event is notable, individuals involved in it may not be. – this article is not about any individuals.
4. Celebrity gossip and diary. Even when an individual is notable, not all events they are involved in are. – this article is not about "celebrity gossip" or any individuals.
The list is incomplete and does not explain the importance of the programs. It is fine for the list to be imperfect.
Anwegmann wrote, "I would support this article once the season/year was over and the programming was confirmed as having aired." This raises a very good point about how the list can improved. The list includes five TV dramas that have not started airing yet. Two have unspecified airing times, while three will begin airing 4 March 2024, 5 March 2024, 11 March 2024. The list includes only one TV drama that had started airing. This is because the list is missing three TV dramas that are already being aired in 2024: vi:Chúng ta phải hạnh phúc (airing between 9 November 2023 and 4 March 2024), Chúng ta của 8 năm sau (airing between 6 November 2023 and 6 March 2024), and vi:Không ngại cưới, chỉ cần một lý do (aired between 21 September 2023 and 19 January 2024). The list can be improved by adding the three missing dramas. The list can be improved by removing the dramas that have not begun airing yet and adding them back after they've been confirmed to have aired.
Anwegmann wrote, "I understand the importance of these programs, but the importance is not obvious without proper explanation and/or contextualization within the article itself." I agree that the list can be improved by explaining the historical significance of the dramas as discussed in the academic sources and newspaper reviews."
The policies say that articles containing flaws should not be deleted if they can be improved. Wikipedia:Deletion policy#Alternatives to deletion says, If editing can address all relevant reasons for deletion, this should be done rather than deleting the page. Wikipedia:Editing policy#Wikipedia is a work in progress: perfection is not required says, Perfection is not required: Wikipedia is a work in progress. Collaborative editing means that incomplete or poorly written first drafts can evolve over time into excellent articles. Even poor articles, if they can be improved, are welcome.

Cunard (talk) 09:38, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.