Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Russian inventions

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was merge to Timeline of Russian inventions and technology records. A selective merge will enable the dubious material to be filtered out, as well Black Kite (talk) 11:32, 29 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

List of Russian inventions[edit]

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Declining PROD by User:RAF910 because one was already contested last year, bringing it to AfD. Concern was: "1...This article appears to be full of cold-war era Russian propaganda. 2...The factual accuracy is already in question. 3...The referenced sources also appear to be Soviet era propaganda and are also in question. 4...This article has been up for deletion in the past for the same issues. And, no attempt appears to have been made to correct the issues in question. 5...This article has received less than one click a day for the last 90 days. It is therefore not worth the time and energy to fix." I'll comment separately. Ansh6 6 6 23:22, 9 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect or possibly selective merge: There's been questions about the veracity of much of the article; I can't tell because the majority of the sources are either in Russian or paper sources and many entries are unsourced (I'm not going to look through hundreds of articles to see whether they individually have sources for being put on here). User:Northamerica1000 mentioned the possibility of a merge to Timeline of Russian inventions and technology records when declining the previous PROD on the talk page, but I'm not convinced that much verifiable info can be merged in. Ansh6 6 6 23:29, 9 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. for the reasons stated above...
1...This article appears to be full of cold-war era Russian propaganda. 2...The factual accuracy is already in question. 3...The referenced sources also appear to be Soviet era propaganda and are also in question. 4...This article has been up for deletion in the past for the same issues. And, no attempt appears to have been made to correct the issues in question. 5...This article has received less than one click a day for the last 90 days. It is therefore not worth the time and energy to fix.--RAF910 (talk) 23:37, 9 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Duplicate vote, so struck. This one is the same as the nomination/PROD statement, and the one below is a lot more detailed, so I'll leave that and get rid of this one. Ansh6 6 6 22:19, 13 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. per nominator. selective merge: I have looked at an article's sources. I have also looked at the edit history of an article's creator. While the topic of this article might be useful for someone's research the information in the article itself is not due to many questionable claims with non-reliable (or permanently dead) supporting references... Which is not surprising considering that this article was created by a person with a very specific agenda here on English Wiki (but that should be discussed elsewhere). Plus there are very similar articles that already exist here, for example Timeline of Russian inventions and technology records - the information from both of these can be merged into one article, after discarding any questionable parts from both of these. Not to mention the fact that this article was given plenty of time to improve since latest deletion proposal discussions but noone bothered to do any coherent improvements except adding in more propaganda fluff with more unusable references. 173.68.110.16 (talk) 00:44, 10 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I have decided to go over it again and have deleted most of the dubious claims/propaganda, as well as irrelevant "penis measurement" sections like "records". Some of the information there is unquestionably useful, just needs more clean-up and a merge with more detailed Timeline of Russian inventions and technology records which already contains similar info as well as constant monitoring (and reversal) of future attempts of padding these articles with more propaganda fluff with useless Russian wiki links and highly questionable references. 173.68.110.16 (talk) 01:13, 12 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Russia-related deletion discussions. Northamerica1000^(talk) 01:24, 10 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Technology-related deletion discussions. Northamerica1000^(talk) 01:24, 10 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. Northamerica1000^(talk) 01:25, 10 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Science-related deletion discussions. Northamerica1000^(talk) 02:05, 10 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Merge with Timeline of Russian inventions and technology records. Similar topics, both marginally useful, Timeline of Russian inventions and technology records seems to be better Alex Bakharev (talk) 04:19, 12 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I have no problem with this list, but the trend or consensus has been to merge such lists. Bearian (talk) 17:32, 13 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comment This article has been much improved (and by that I mean a lot of random stuff was cut out) by the IP above. When it was nominated it was ridiculous. That said, much of what remains here is a duplicate of the timeline article. Ansh6 6 6 17:43, 13 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. Unfortunately, this article was not created as an honest source of information listing the true accomplishments of Russian Inventors. But, as propaganda trying desperately to prove the superiority of the Soviet/Russian State. Even though it has been cleaned up. There is still a tremendous amount of questionable information. Much of it based on Soviet and Russian patents which are not worth the paper they are written on. Throughout the Cold War and even today, whenever anyone invents anything of note, the Russians are quick to produce a patent claiming that they invented it years if not decades earlier. Today, no country in the world accepts Russian patents, not even their friends and allies. In fact, the Russians can't even get their friends to make royalty payments for the AK-47 rifles that they make (which is clearly a Russian invention). Also, every single publisher in USSR/Russia was/is considered and instrument of the State and was/is part of the Russian Propaganda Machine with orders to prove the superiority of the Soviet/Russian State. As such, they write and rewrite history accordingly. They even airbrush people out of historical photographs or add them in as they see fit. As a result, every Russian book, newspaper and magazine is by definition a bias/questionable source. Even Cook Books are not immune and filled with propaganda touting the superiority of the Russian state farmer. So, if someone wants to claim that the Russians/USSR invented something we need and absolutely irrefutable English Language source.--RAF910 (talk) 21:01, 13 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Sound English sources are more preferable, but Russian sources could also be used.
- There are many nations and cultures (e.g. Chinese, Muslim etc) claiming a lot of technical achievements, with many such published invention claims being questionable, especially in the eyes of a typical educated Western reader. The issue is complicated by the difficulties in defining of what constitutes an invention and what constitutes a priority in inventing something (e.g. can we call an early prototype invention? should we list an invention that was forgotten and later re-invented by another nation? etc). The topic is complex to handle, and we should try to use some strict criteria to compose the list.
- Also, every single publisher in USSR/Russia was/is considered and instrument of the State and was/is part of the Russian Propaganda Machine with orders to prove the superiority of the Soviet/Russian State. In relation to the technical history there was indeed a brief post-WWII period of the "struggle for domestic priorities in science and technology" when Soviet authors propagandised a lot of priorities in science and technology. The period however ended long ago, though it introduced some recurring invention myths into circulation in Russia and post-Soviet space.
- Me too is unhappy with the present state of the article. I agree that it should be improved via better sorting of information, better formatting, better sourcing, and application of stricter criteria of what constitutes an invention. But there is absolutely no reason to delete the article. GreyHood ^Talk 21:27, 15 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Keep not merge The list and the timeline better stay two different articles. These are two different formats, and it is better to have both a collection of inventions sorted by field and a chronological perspective of invention history related to Russia. The list needs more work to become a decent article, but what we have now is a good start. GreyHood ^Talk 21:21, 15 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment. Your arguments are exactly the same arguments that saved this page from deletion the last time...Yes, the article is filled with propaganda, disinformation and outright lies, but we can fix it...Unfortunately, that did not happen. Every attempt to fix the problems was reverted. The only thing that happen was the addition of massive amounts of additional propaganda, disinformation and outright lies. This article cannot be fixed. There are simply too many people invested in the lies. If we allow this article to stand, then its only a matter of time before it will be up for deletion again, for exactly the same reasons.--RAF910 (talk) 20:34, 16 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- How about we delete this, move the timeline over, and make it into a table format so it can be sorted however people want it to be sorted? Then again, I'm not too good with tables on Wikipedia (or really anywhere), so I wouldn't trust myself to do it. Ansh6 6 6 21:29, 16 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- My concern is...if we merge this article with the Timeline of Russian inventions and technology records then we haven't really solved the problem, we just move it to another page. While I believe that the Timeline of Russian inventions and technology records is better than the List of Russian inventions it also suffers from many of the same problems. — Preceding unsigned comment added by RAF910 (talk • contribs) 23:36, 16 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, AutomaticStrikeout (₵) 01:48, 18 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Keep This article is quite a mess but the topic is notable and important to Russian culture. We can do a general summary/list in this article as well as the timeline in its own article, so I say keep both and discuss a merge someplace without a 7 day deadline. Them From Space 02:17, 21 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment. So far, everyone who has commented on this page agrees that this article is filled propaganda, disinformation and outright lies, even after user 173.68.110.16 took a machete to it. For any other article on Wikipedia this would be more than enough to justify deletion. It should be noted...that user 173.68.110.16 is the only editor who wants to keep or merge the article, who has actually made any effort to fix it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by RAF910 (talk • contribs) 03:42, 21 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  - As GreyHood said above, if this article is not currently neutral it can be edited with reliable sources to be NPOV. Are there any specific points in the article that you contest? Them From Space 15:18, 21 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment. Because, this article changes the definition of invention for every entry, in order to award the "invention" to Russia.
  - For example, in the "Ancient inventions section" we see Russia taking credit for inventions that were made thousands if not tens-of-thousands of years before Russia existed, by peoples and societies that no longer exist. Simply because, a 4000 year old artifact was dug-up in Russian soil.
  - For example, in the "Developments leading to section" we see Russia taking credit for inventions created by others by claiming that a Russian came up with the idea first. See...stealth aircraft, just because a Russian mathematician wrote down some equations in the 1960s, the invention is awarded to Russia. All the while ignoring the fact that the Germans were flying aircraft with stealth characteristics during WW2 and the Americans flying prototype stealth aircraft in the 1950s. In fact the picture in the article is of American F-117 Stealth Fighter. But, because the Americans use some of those equations to make the F-117 we have to award the invention to Russia. Even, though the first operational modern stealth aircraft was the SR-71 in the 1960s and was design before the Russian mathematician wrote down his equations.
  - For example, in the "Precursors section" we see Russia taking credit for the precursors inventions (whatever that suppose to mean). Such as the monorail, because a Russian made the first one in 1920. However, monorails were being made decades earlier by inventors all over Europe and America. And, the first patent was taken out a hundred years earlier in the UK. In this case the only thing that matters is the a Russian made the first one 1920 (not true but who cares). Where, above when it comes to stealth aircraft we have a different definition of invention...a Russian write down some equations we give the invention to Russia. However, if a British citizen gets a patent a hundred years earlier that doesn't count.
  - For example, in the "Inventions by Russian emigrants section" we see Russia taking the credit for inventions created by anyone born in Russia. Even if they left Russia when they were children and developed and patented their inventions decades later in another country. I guess if an inventor is born Russian his invention belongs to Russia.
  - For example, many of the entries have no references to back them up. And, when you go to the main page to review them, there is no mention that they are Russian inventions.
  - I can go on, but I think I've made my point. — Preceding unsigned comment added by RAF910 (talk • contribs) 18:31, 21 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Delete as WP:COATRACK. Many different things are mixed together in the list, with no clear definition of what invention is and even what should be attributed to Russia. I do not see how it possibly can be repaired.--Ymblanter (talk) 09:55, 25 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Merge to Timeline of Russian inventions and technology records. Different formats is not a good enough reason to have separate articles. ~KvnG 14:59, 25 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Merge, but let's please all remember that AfD is not cleanup, per our deletion policy.--cyclopia ^speak! 10:34, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Delete borderline COATRACK, no clear criteria for inclusion. -Drdisque (talk) 22:20, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.