Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Polish supercentenarians (2nd nomination)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Essentially, nobody except the nominator wants to delete the article. The decision to merge or redirect can be done outside of the scope of AfD. Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 10:14, 9 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

List of Polish supercentenarians[edit]

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The article list of Polish supercentenarians should be deleted because it contains almost no encyclopedic information, after you remove the list of Polish emigrant supercentenarians which itself violates at least three major Wikipedia polices.

The list of Polish emigrant supercentenarians clearly violates WP:BLP, verifiability, and no original research policies. The claim that Gustav Gerneth, born in the German Empire on land that became part of Poland after WW2, is a "Polish emigrant" is wholly unsubstantiated by his corresponding source. After extensive searching, I could locate no source stating that Gerneth ever was a citizen of Poland and later moved back to Germany. This is clearly a major violation of WP:BLP. There is scant evidence that any of the people on this list ever emigrated from the country of Poland to somewhere else or were Polish nationals, so for nearly every person on this list an unverifiable claim is being made. To say that these people "emigrated" from Poland due to having been born on territory that later became part of the country of Poland and were once Polish nationals, is clearly original research, with no reliable sources backing up these assertions.

After the list of Polish emigrant supercentenarians is removed, which it needs to be, the article lists only four individuals, one of whom has no source. Another deceased claimant has no source for their death date or voivodeship of death. There have been thousands of supercentenarians, so there is nothing notable about these one 110-year-old, two 111-year-old, and one 112-year-old women. The oldest Polish woman and man, living and ever, are already listed on the List of oldest people by country page, so nothing of value is lost if this page is deleted or gained by reading it. Wikipedia is not a memorial (WP:Memorial), so there is no need to keep a record of the other three young Polish supercentenarians on this list. Any future Polish supercentenarians of actually notable ages would be recorded on the List of European supercentenarians page and etc.

The innumerable errors in this article also strongly speaks to how little this article offers in value because if readers thought it a valuable source of information, they would have taken the time to fix it or better yet, have done it right the first time. Instead, it's a pointless backwater article where shoddy information gets thoughtlessly slapped on from time to time. This page should be deleted. Newshunter12 (talk) 22:00, 24 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists of people-related deletion discussions. Newshunter12 (talk) 22:22, 24 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Poland-related deletion discussions. Newshunter12 (talk) 22:22, 24 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Keep: the previous AfD noted that the list could be focused down to people born in the territory of modern day Poland. Gustav Gerneth, for example, was, per the source, born in Stettin, i.e. Szczecin. Given these criteria of inclusion, his appearance on the list is right. The introduction to the article should make the criteria more clear, and the 'emigrants' section should be renamed or have a note above - for the aritcle's purposes it means someone born in what is now Poland but who is living, or died, outside that region. That should dispense with concerns about WP:BLP, WP:V and WP:OR, given most of this is already sourced. At worst, the article could be renamed "List of supercentenarians born in modern-day Poland", with appropriate redirects, or expanded to include lists with alternative criteria, such as having lived in modern-day Poland itself at some point, or having held Polish citizenship (though these would be harder to source). "The other three young Polish supercentenarians" is amusingly oxymoronic, but "pointless backwater article where shoddy information gets thoughtlessly slapped on" is unreasonable. Mortee (talk) 23:04, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

No. The vast majority of the article is inherently corrupted by major violations of numerous Wikipedia policies. Many individuals in this article, such as Gustav Gerneth, never had any ties to Poland and it is therefore a false claim to include them in this article because this article inherently is claiming all of these individuals had or have deep ties to Poland (deep enough to warrant Wikipedia claiming they are permanently tied to the country after being born in countries other then Poland). We cannot change the article to "List of supercentenarians born in modern-day Poland" because none of these people were actually born in modern-day Poland, which didn't exist when they were born. It would be another false claim.

By age, none of the four Polish women on this list is actually notable. There have been countless thousands and thousands of supercentenarians in the world, so there is nothing exceptional or encyclopedic about their ages, other then that the eldest is the oldest validated Polish person ever, which is information already displayed variously in multiple well-maintained articles, one of which lists the oldest currently living and oldest ever woman and man of many different countries, including Poland. In addition to all the other errors I have noted, did you realize that the source for the only living Polish woman on this list is outdated, which means she needs to be pulled off unless a recent reliable source is located and that the note section of the emigrant list ranking is out of order? This is a backwater article that provides no useful encyclopedic information that cannot be found in other articles - that's reality, not an insult. Newshunter12 (talk) 09:26, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The article can be re-worded so as not to wrongly label any one Polish or an emigrant. Readers from each country will surely want to know about the oldest people for their country. People born in the area currently covered by the modern territory is one sane metric to include, as long as it's explained in the article and not misrepresented by the title. We also shouldn't exclude countries just because their current oldest people aren't world-beating—almost by definition, that changes. Mortee (talk) 22:35, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect to List of European supercentenarians per nom. I'm not convinced http://supercentenarian-research-foundation.org/ is a good source here. The (very few) entries can be discussed on the European page; there is certainly a problem including Germans who were born and died in Germany on this page as a result of territorial changes. power~enwiki (π, ν) 19:24, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your input. I think outright deletion makes much more sense then a redirect because the only person in this article old enough to be listed on the List of European supercentenarians is German woman Augusta Holtz, listed in this article as a "Polish emigrant", whom left Europe for the U.S. many decades before Poland was created. Nothing in this article is worth redirecting. Newshunter12 (talk) 20:19, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Ad Orientem (talk) 00:42, 1 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Merge with List of European supercentenarians. Polish is too specific for such a short list. No reason for a separate article/list. Redditaddict69 (talk) 06:10, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Per Mortee. Drunk in Paris (talk) 18:40, 8 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.