Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Muslim athletes (2nd nomination)

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was keep. Flowerparty■ 17:47, 13 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

List of Muslim athletes[edit]

We don't have a List of Christian athletes do we, nor a List of Jewish athletes. So why do we need a List of Muslim ones? Werdna648T/C\@ 11:12, 7 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Also a repost. Werdna648T/C\@ 11:15, 7 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, there is a List of Jewish American athletes. --JuanMuslim 1m 22:05, 7 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, and that list should be deleted too. The famous (Jewish) physicist Richard Feynman once declined to be included in a book of "Jewish winners of the Nobel prize" precisely because of the inherent racist inclination of such lists. We have no way of knowing whether the names listed on that page are in fact Jewish, and if they are, we don't know if they wish to be identified that way. Slowmover 22:52, 7 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Since there is no such thing as jewish or christian atheletics, but there is Islamic athletics. --Striver 11:22, 7 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. In the "List of <somereligion> <someactivity>" articles can the faith of the listed be verified? Are they practicing Muslims? Or are the articles understood to mean people who live in a country that has a legal system strongly influenced by that religion? Or, since some of these athletes seem to live in predominantly non-Muslim countries, a combination of the two? The very first on the list, Abdul-Karim al-Jabbar, appears to live in the USA; is Islamic athletics relevant? I'm a bit unsure what these articles are supposed to list... Weregerbil 12:00, 7 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - it's fine. some people like that sorta thing. Crzrussian 13:19, 7 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per Striver. --Terence Ong 13:23, 7 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete as unuseful and unmaintainable. aren't there categories for this? Ned Wilbury 15:04, 7 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
You seem to have an issue with lists on Wikipedia in general. --JuanMuslim 1m 22:46, 7 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. In some countries Islam begets Sharia which governs all aspects of life, religious and secular. Every aspect of life is ruled by Islam, including athletics, hence Islamic athletics. Equally validly Islamic basketweaving can be written about (no fair depicting Mohammed in your basket! Must wear a burqa when weaving outside!). Leading to List of Muslim basketweavers. I'm not sure I see the encyclopedia-worthiness of all that. What do these lists mean? As a reader, am I to get a list of people living under a specific type of legal system or people who are devout Moslems (evidence please?) or what? Weregerbil 15:44, 7 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. Islamic athletics doesn't really seem to be relevant - most of the sorts of things in that article aren't that different to Eric Liddell not competing on a Sunday. I don't really see the needd for all these sorts of lists, but if they stick to people who are notable for their religion as well as sport, or at least those who have mentioned their religion, I don't see the harm. JPD (talk) 15:46, 7 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • keep Actually, we do have List of Jewish American athletes. I'll made the redirect from the link you suggested above. --Bachrach44 15:51, 7 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • comment this was probably an outgrowth of List of Muslims, which has since been divided into sub-lists because it was becoming excessively large. We also have List of Hindus, List of Canadians, etc., alsmost all of which have a subsection which includes athletes. --Bachrach44 15:55, 7 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete lol, what the hell does the religion have to do with athletes? Delete Islamic athletics too.  Grue  16:29, 7 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The list is a part of a larger List of Muslims. --JuanMuslim 1m 22:49, 7 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep, this survived AfD already and nothing really new has been brought up. Bachrach44 has a great point and I think it should be kept anyway. Grandmasterka 16:36, 7 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Actually, that vote was a unanimous delete. Was the article recreated? JPD (talk) 17:14, 7 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • It looks that way, in which case I believe it is eligible for speedy delete. But personally I'm going to vote to keep as long as the list is limited to prominent athletes. — RJH 17:28, 7 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
        • Comment: It's not eligible for speedy deletion. The article has been deleted five times, but the version of the article deleted by the previous AFD was a bare empty list. It's since been speedied twice under CSD:G4, but I don't think it's valid for speedy deletion in the current form as it's not speediable under any other criterion now, and it's not the same as the article that was deleted before. Sorry if that doesn't make sense, it's a little late. Stifle 01:26, 11 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per Grue. get rid of these worthless lists MadCow257 16:42, 7 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I'm not an expert on list-cruft but I can image information for a topic like this that could not be conveyed in a category. Example, if tehre are a lot of sports that you want to separate out. You could make 50 subcategories with very few members but that would not be very user-friendly. Just a thought. Lists do have some usefulness to wikipedia. savidan(talk) (e@) 18:44, 7 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per Grue. Such lists are meaningless. What if someone is born Christian and turns Muslim later on? These lists also contribute to "ethnic comparisons" and other controversial and destructive ideas. Slowmover 20:45, 7 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
If the person says s/he is a Muslim, then s/he is a Muslim. If s/he is also an athlete, then s/he is a Muslim athlete. --JuanMuslim 1m 23:20, 7 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. An intersection of two random unrelated categories, in addition one of which is poorly specified and largely unverifiable. All the sensibility of List of comedic actors who prefer cats over dogs as pets. Are these people Muslims because they really are or because they live in countries where they are likely to be beheaded for not acting like one? A list lacking informational content of any kind, and more likely to mislead than to educate. Weregerbil 20:51, 7 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Please WP:CIVIL. Comments on "countries where they are likely to be beheaded" and attire while basket weaving are superfluous. -- Samir ∙ TC 22:18, 7 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • If attire while basket weaving is not an allowed area of discussion may we discuss the attire of persons engaged in sports? Please see Islamic athletics which happens to discuss the effect of burqas and other clothing in sporting events. Weregerbil 23:50, 7 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
        • Your points are well taken, but I'd just appreciate if you'd tone down the rhetoric a notch. Depicting Muhammad in a basket is probably much. -- Samir ∙ TC 00:13, 8 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
          • Depicting Mohamed in the weave of a basket is an example of what Islam forbids (according to some scholars, not all). Depicting Mohamed in a basket is idolatry, i.e. an "ansab" (what, no article on that?! Probably under some other name I can't find at the moment.) Islamic athletics discusses other similar Islamic principles such as hijab and awrah. Is using ansab as an example less civil than mentioning hijab and awrah? In an AfD is a discussion please let's find a balance between WP:CIVIL and tip-toeing around delicate word play that restricts genuine exchange of opinion. Or, in other words, try to focus on the issues rather than work hard to take comments the worst possible way and to get offended. You are rather quick to cite others of incivility when it is somewhat possible you don't understand the point they are making (which, again, is entirely possibly in a large part due to me not being a native speaker of English! Also comments in an AfD are written in an unusually curt form due to the need to get the point across quickly; this requires even further positive attitude (assume good faith) from the reader. Again my apologies if I was too brief in my rationale earlier. This comment surely has no such problem :-) Weregerbil 01:03, 8 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
            • I don't want to detract from the AfD, so I've responded on your talk page. -- Samir ∙ TC 02:05, 8 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep. By your standards, anything that is not a list of Muslim scholars and/or historical figures should be deleted. --JuanMuslim 1m 22:09, 7 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • An important reason to delete all lists of this type is that there is no "authority" who can decide who is Muslim and who is not (or Christian, or Jewish, or people who love cats). Therefore, the compilation of the list is POV, which does not belong on Wikipedia. People who want these lists should set up a website for them. Can you specify an authority which can be used to verify the inclusion of each name on such a list? Slowmover 22:32, 7 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
That's the purpose of the talk page of each article. An individual can easily be deleted off the list. --JuanMuslim 1m 22:57, 7 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
So... umm... Do you mean anyone can be added to the list but to deleting a name from the list can be done only after proof on the talk page? I hope I understand you incorrectly. Zero proof to add to the list, 100% water tight proof to delete? I do trust this is a miscommunication and I interpret you incorrectly. Adding any Joe Q. Smith on the list and then requiring others to prove beyond a shadow of doubt he is not a practicing devout Muslim surely should not be the criteria for inclusion? Weregerbil 00:04, 8 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, a misunderstanding. --JuanMuslim 1m 13:31, 8 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - As long as many muslim athletes are keen to relate their profession w/ their confession. How many of these people pray before competing? How many thank God/Allah after winning? How many refuse to sing national anthems before starting? How many of them carry religious messages when playing (Abou Treka -the Egyptian footbal midfielder carried a message defending the prophet Muhammad recently at the African Cup final)... -- Szvest 16:19, 11 March 2006 (UTC) Wiki me up&#153;[reply]
  • Keep As listcruft goes, this is a lot more useful than say, List of United States Presidents by height order. David Sneek 19:32, 12 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Delete - Unmaintainable, unverifiable (was every athlete on here interviewed on their religious preference? Or are all of these athletes being lumped together because they come from Muslim countries?), also agree with comments by User:Carlossuarez46-- Oscar Arias 17:37, 13 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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