Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Morgan State University Athletic Hall of Fame

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. —Sean Whitton / 13:59, 27 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

List of Morgan State University Athletic Hall of Fame[edit]

This is a list of student athletes who are in that school's hall of fame. No sources outside the university are provided. Violates WP:NOT#DIR. Phlegm Rooster (talk) 23:16, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Not a question of sourcing,or oOR, Rather, NOT DIRECTORY. they have a website for this already. DGG (talk) 01:29, 22 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep This article is no different that articles for major white american universities like University of Iowa Athletics Hall of Fame, University of Michigan Athletic Hall of Honor, Towson University Athletic Hall of Fame or Ohio State Varsity O Hall of Fame. Why is there an Afd for the lone African American university? So far 20 of the athletes on Morgan's list have their own pages, with 4 being in the NFL Hall of Fame and an Olympic gold medal winner.--«Marylandstater» ^«^reply^» 02:41, 22 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Weak delete - Agree with DGG that this article is solely a directory. Marylandstater: all the articles you gave have additional information about the halls of fame, such as what makes them notable, history, context, etc. This article does not. It may well be that such an article can be written for the subject; willing to change my opinion if my concerns are addressed. -FrankTobia (talk) 05:16, 22 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- My concerns have been addressed. Article looks better now. -FrankTobia (talk) 03:53, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment The Iowa one has a building of its own. The other ones are also troubling. One has an article AND a list. Phlegm Rooster (talk) 05:54, 22 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete-- consists solely of a list/directory of individually non-notable people. It's a well compiled list and the sourcing could be worse, but I just don't think it has a place here. For the record, I hold essentially the same opinion about the other articles listed by Marylandstater, remember- the existence of other examples of something does not justify that something's existence. Furthermore, I rather resent the subtle implications of racism in Marylandstater's post. Frankly, I think most people haven't even heard of Morgan State University (I hadn't) and thus would not know that it is or isn't an African American college (I didn't). Let's try to keep that sort of misplaced sentiment out of this discussion, as I've found it tends to discourage honest dialogue and encourage needless drama. L'Aquatique[review] 06:41, 22 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Although I did not intend my post to imply any sort of racism, subtle or otherwise, I apologize. But L'Aquatique's other remark goes more to what I intended to discuss: The history of these major institutions are better documented in the traditional ways so that we have heard of them. African American colleges and universities, like Negro league baseball, went largely unnoticed, and unreported, during the first half of the last century. We have only heard of Josh Gibson or Satchel Paige because of efforts, in the last 20 years, by historical activist to keep their contributions alive for generations of those who had not heard of them. Yes, the Morgan article contains many "non-notables" as we might define them here and now. But in the last month I have found some very notable aspects of people on that list that I did not know before. see: Edward P. Hurt, Joe Black, Rosey Brown. I would like to see the stories of others on that list included in Wikipedia as well. I'd like to discuss more, but I got to get to work (at my job which actually pays me money).--«Marylandstater» ^«^reply^» 11:01, 22 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Strong Keep - per Marylandstater's observation that several other lists of this nature exist and those lists contain both notable (they have WP articles) and non-notable (no WP article) entries. I would submit that all these lists should be restricted to notable entries (a WP article or explicit sourcing for inclusion if no WP article exists). But, I cannot come up with any logical rationale, guideline or policy that says one of these lists is OK but the other isn't. Either WP contains lists of notable entries organized around a common theme or it doesn't.--Mike Cline (talk) 14:20, 22 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Keep similar articles exist; but should include an explanation regarding Marylandstater's comment or in Morgan State article itself Deanlaw (talk) 03:07, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment The issue is whether or not the Hall of Fame is notable as an entity. By definition it will have famed people on its rolls. But there is no physical location, as far as I can tell. In fact, "Athletic Hall of Fame" returns no Google hits when confined to morgan.edu. How do you explain that? Phlegm Rooster (talk) 11:56, 22 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Strong keep - An official hall of fame established by any major university such as Morgan State is notable. The potential to help develop new articles on the history of African-American athletics in the days of segregation, as noted by Marylandstater, makes this one especially valuable.Cbl62 (talk) 15:00, 25 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Strangely, the Hall of Fame does not appear on the university's web pages, so how can it be official? Phlegm Rooster (talk) 15:21, 25 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  - Comment - Phlegm Rooster - I just read the concept of Official and nowhere did I find a requirement that something wasn't official if it didn't have a webpage from a higher authority that bestowed the official status. Is this a new WP guideline I am unaware of? Indeed this Hall of Fame may not have some official status, but the absence of webpage hardly establishes that.--Mike Cline (talk) 15:35, 25 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    - I respond to the argument; a claim is made that it is official. I note that the university's own website doesn't mention it, which causes me to doubt the validity of this claim. You could just as well has made your comment to Cb162; what does official status have to do with notability? Phlegm Rooster (talk) 15:43, 25 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      - Thanks for clairfying your position. I was not really commenting of the actual officialness or notability of this entity but the specific statement you made: the Hall of Fame does not appear on the university's web pages, so how can it be official? which I believe can be interpreted very clearly as No webpage = Not Official, ie it reads like a guideline. Had you phrased your doubt something like this: the Hall of Fame does not appear on the university's web pages, so where is the evidence to show its official?, the need to explain your position a second time would not have been neccesary. Precision language is very important to reasoned consensus.--Mike Cline (talk) 17:50, 25 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        I'm not trying to create a guideline, just musing that it is odd that the university doesn't make any mention of the Hall of Fame. Phlegm Rooster (talk) 20:53, 25 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    - The fact remains that although some of the coaches and athletes in the Hall of Fame are notable, the Hall of Fame itself is not. None of the sources provided on the page address this fact; they are either not independent of the Hall, or they don't mention the Hall at all. Phlegm Rooster (talk) 15:43, 25 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
delete per DGG, who nails it on the head once again. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 16:35, 26 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete As mentioned, Wikipedia is not a directory, as to the other similar pages, they probably suffer for the same reason. Nuttah (talk) 07:50, 27 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.