Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Jewish American activists

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Sandstein 19:32, 13 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

List of Jewish American activists[edit]

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The term "activist" is so broad (and used so broadly here) that it is meaningless; this list will not assist anyone in finding anything they are looking for. Jayjg ^(talk) 21:47, 26 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 22:08, 26 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Passes WP:LISTN. For example see Jews in American Politics - Activists and Organizers. Note also that there is a corresponding Category:Jewish activists and so WP:CLN applies. Andrew D. (talk) 23:03, 26 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists of people-related deletion discussions. Bakazaka (talk) 23:07, 26 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Judaism-related deletion discussions. Bakazaka (talk) 23:07, 26 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. Bakazaka (talk) 23:07, 26 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per nom. There is already a corresponding Category:Jewish activists. --תנא קמא (talk) 11:00, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

WP:NOTDUP explains that lists and categories are complementary and so we don't delete one to promote the other. Anyway, as soon as I pointed out the existence of the category, above, the nominator rushed off to try to delete that too. But note that, while there are numerous types of activists indexed in such ways (cats, lists), the nominator is only trying to delete the Jewish ones. Andrew D. (talk) 13:34, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm, my ears were burning. "rushed off", "only trying to delete"? That's an unpleasant way of describing things. In relation to Jews, the intersection with "activist" is meaningless, because "activist" is too broad a term to be helpful to readers in this case. When you pointed out there was a category too, I proposed deleting it too, for the same reason. As for "only the Jewish ones", a) that was the one I saw, and b) "activist" might be helpful/meaningful when it intersects with many other things (I don't really know), but not in this case. I will note, however, that this is the only list that provides an intersection between an ethnicity and "activist" (there is one other that provides an intersection between an ethnicity and a specific kind of activist). So it seems that this list is the outlier, and other lists do not exist precisely for the reason I proposed this list be deleted. Jayjg ^(talk) 16:46, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The category was nominated for deletion 8 minutes after I mentioned it above. That doesn't seem to have been enough time for the nominator to check the facts of the matter. There are numerous categories for ethnic activists – so many that we have a category to group them all: category:Activists_by_ethnicity. which has 30 sub-categories, including Arab activists,Romani activists,Yoruba activists, &c. Per WP:CLN, lists and categories are equivalent and so the use of these terms and concepts is well-established. Andrew D. (talk) 19:36, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Eight minutes was more than enough, since the issue with this list is identical. There may be several categories of ethnic activists, but you'd hard-pressed to find a similar list. In any event, your point is based on WP:OTHERSTUFF, which I don't think is a particularly strong argument. Jayjg ^(talk) 20:12, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per nom. "Activist" is too hazy and broad a criterion. Clarityfiend (talk) 19:09, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - the nom needs to clarify why the Jewish American activists have been picked out from Category:Lists of activists, as the nom merely objects to the vagueness of 'activist'. (It is quite easy to find List of African American activists.) Oculi (talk) 10:11, 28 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- Oculi, thanks for finding that. I think the term "activist" is too broad, particularly when combined with an ethno-cultural group. As such, I've proposed it for deletion too. The only list I see there that is similarly broad is List of Sri Lankan activists, which combines nationality with the term "activist", and it's possible that should be deleted too. The other lists are much narrower (e.g. "Nepali democratic movement (1951) activists", "New Zealand left-wing activists"), so are likely more useful. Does that help clarify? Jayjg ^(talk) 16:05, 28 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per nom.; As תנא קמא mentioned, too, it has already a corresponding Category:Jewish activists. So I presume it might be better to be deleted. Ali Ahwazi (talk) 09:18, 4 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That's not our policy. WP:NOTDUP explains:
It is neither improper nor uncommon to simultaneously have a category, a list, and a navigation template which all cover the same topic. These systems of organizing information are considered to be complementary, not inappropriately duplicative. Furthermore, arguing that a category duplicates a list (or vice versa) at a deletion discussion is not a valid reason for deletion and should be avoided.

Andrew D. (talk) 09:55, 4 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Per WP:LISTN, this is a "cross-categorization list (such as "Lists of X of Y")" where both X (e.g. American Jews) and Y (e.g. Activism) are WP notable; and therefore the list is acceptable. The list does not cause harm/offense under any other WP:PAG, and all the listed people are blue-linked to other WP articles (e.g. they are notable). It is a Keep. Britishfinance (talk) 13:14, 6 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Politics-related deletion discussions. E.M.Gregory (talk) 13:43, 6 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

~~*Keep~~ list is subdivided by topic: AIDS activists, Anarchists, Animal right, Anti-communism, Anti-racist right through the alphabet to Z for Zionists. ~~Looks accurate, valid, useful.E.M.Gregory (talk) 14:11, 6 March 2019 (UTC)~~[reply]

~~Delete~~ On second thought, I take [[User:Jayjg's point, "activist" is pretty vague. But I am more concerned with the fact that "Jewish " is pretty vague. We have an increasing number of pages where the "Background" or "childhood section" says somehting like: his father's mother was an immigrant from Hungary, his father's father immigrated from Bohemia, his mother's father was a Jewish immigrant from Smolensk, and his mother's mother was Irish-American. (See Bill DeBlasio for an example of how hard it is to define an American as Irish, German... or Jewish. E.M.Gregory (talk) 14:51, 6 March 2019 (UTC) (striking iVote,) bowing to consensus tha tethnic identity is relevant to everything, although I find this classification-by-ancestry weird.E.M.Gregory (talk) 14:31, 10 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Take a look at Leopold Eidlitz, an architect, we list him in Category:Jewish architects, but maybe we shouldn't, because he dropped his Jewish identity as he crossed the Atlantic. Eidlitz came from the old Austro-Hungarian Empire, he was born a Jewish family, but here's the thing: he married a Christian and no one appears to have known that he was Jewish until a nosy biographer figured it out a century later: Leopold Eidlitz; Architecture and Idealism in the Gilded Age by Kathryn E. Holliday, W.W. Norton. He clearly didn't want it known. So, was he Jewish? E.M.Gregory (talk) 15:07, 6 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

And what do we do with complicated claims of Jewishness made by Julia Salazar and Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and others? It may make more sense, as Nom suggests, to delete this list and let readers find their activists in categories like Category:American civil rights activists, Category:American activist journalists, Category:American Zionists etc.E.M.Gregory (talk) 15:07, 6 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Jovanmilic97 (talk) 15:23, 6 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. We do have a Category:Jewish activists which is something reasonable and other "activist" pages and categories. So that list seem to be consistent with WP:List. My very best wishes (talk) 19:14, 6 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. Consistent with WP:LISTN, category exists, WP:NOTDUP applies, WP:CLN applies. Our goal should be to make information easier for people to find, currently if one enters 'Jewish Activist' In Wikipedia search, this article is the first result, which hopefully will point them in the right direction. Unoc (talk) 12:38, 10 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.