Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Good Mythical Morning episodes

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete‎. – bradv 20:08, 26 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

List of Good Mythical Morning episodes[edit]

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List of Good Mythical Morning episodes (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)
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We usually don't have lists of videos released by YouTube channels. As has been noted in some of the edit summaries, the titles of videos aren't even fixed, as some of their titles have been changed, which have to be manually corrected, which is a serious issue to maintain the list, given that this list includes over 2,000 videos. Hemiauchenia (talk) 18:25, 6 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

As for whether it meets WP:NLIST in that the topic has been covered by multiple reliable sources (or there's enough reliable sources about individual episodes to merit a list like this), that is quite dubious. At a glance I see some sources from Huffington Post and The Inquisitr, but the majority of the page is unsourced, suggesting that this topic may not meet the guidelines. Unless editors find more sources, I'd suggest either rewriting this article entirely to only include individual episodes that have received coverage from reliable sources, or perhaps redirecting/merging to the parent article and including a much more concise section of episodes there. PantheonRadiance (talk) 22:15, 7 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, my issue is that I don't think GMM episodes pass WP:NLIST in same way that something like a list of TV show episodes would. Hemiauchenia (talk) 22:23, 7 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I understand that. Not to say this is notable or non-notable, but regardless of its notability, doing a WP:BEFORE for sources will be extremely challenging. GMM may be notable, but sorting out which sources cover individual episodes significantly or not is another issue altogether. I'm partial to a redirect or merge per WP:ATD, but I'm going to abstain from a definitive vote until editors (myself included) do their own BEFORE searches. PantheonRadiance (talk) 23:05, 7 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 22:35, 13 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment: I don't see the distinction between GMM and television as particularly meaningful anymore when a webseries has TV-like production values, given the cultural change in content production and streaming in recent years.
Whether this passes notability regardless is a separate issue Jack4576 (talk) 07:32, 14 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I don't necessarily disagree, but in my mind GMM is something like a gameshow, and we generally delete lists of gameshow episodes e.g. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Deal or No Deal (U.S. game show) episodes. Hemiauchenia (talk) 08:11, 14 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
GMM is nothing like a game show, what?! - Evelyn Marie (leave a message · contributions) 20:43, 14 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I don't mean literally like a gameshow, but in the fact there are very long runs of episodes that individually are not very notable. Hemiauchenia (talk) 20:46, 14 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Neither are most TV episodes, on most TV episode list articles, the only thing cited is the average viewercount with regards to U.S. households. The rest is pretty much self-verifiable. However, Good Mythical Morning as a whole is still notable, and does receive a decent amount of coverage, especially when celebrity guests are in an episode. - Evelyn Marie (leave a message · contributions) 20:57, 14 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, but most non soap opera and non-game show tv series don't have thousands of episodes. There's a reason why we don't have lists of soap opera episodes. I'm not opposed to a more cut down list including only celebrity guest episodes, like the PewDiePie videography, which only includes a small fraction of his output. Hemiauchenia (talk) 21:00, 14 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I don't agree with this. Only having a cut down list would make the article's entire existence redundant. - Evelyn Marie (leave a message · contributions) 21:02, 14 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Also, late night shows have a significant amount of episodes, for example. See The Tonight Show Starring Jimmy Fallon and List of The Tonight Show Starring Jimmy Fallon episodes. This is what I'd most compare GMM to. - Evelyn Marie (leave a message · contributions) 21:03, 14 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that the volume of Late night talkshow episodes is comparable to those of GMM, but those are much more likely to have received individual coverage by newspapers and the like e.g. [1] [2]. Hemiauchenia (talk) 21:07, 14 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
GMM receives views in the millions. Covering every single episode of GMM would be too much output for publications to cover on a significant level, especially since episodes air every day of the week, that's perhaps why they don't bother. But there are still over 70 references in the article which suggests notability. Having 2,000 citations for every single episode as well would be too much and would significantly increase the page's load time, not to mention more than likely exceed Wikipedia's post-expand include size limit. - Evelyn Marie (leave a message · contributions) 21:11, 14 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
GMM is much less broadly culturally relevant or notable than late night talkshows, which is why newspapers don't cover it, not because there is too much content to cover. Many of these references (e.g. [3]) are only passing mentions. Hemiauchenia (talk) 21:17, 14 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Newspapers are a dying media consumption format and shouldn't be used as a valid metric for determining notability, IMO, but that's a subject for another day. It should be noted that articles like these don't need significant sourcing to be notable or verifiable when episode titles and air dates can be independently verified, as they are publicly available. GMM has always been a severly popular show on YouTube, and one of their episodes received over 32 million views, funnily enough talking about game show cheaters, and a significant amount of their episodes have received millions of views in general outside of that. But it should be noted that individual YouTube channels, regardless of what a channel focuses on or how popular it is, don't typically receive significant media coverage for every little thing they do. - Evelyn Marie (leave a message · contributions) 21:27, 14 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Newspaper coverage is literally how most people (except academics) are determined to be notable on Wikipedia. The idea that Newspapers ... shouldn't be used as a valid metric for determining notability shows that your understanding of notability guidelines is very out of step with the Wikipedia consensus. Hemiauchenia (talk) 21:34, 14 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It was merely an opinion of mine, wasn't trying to align myself with Wikipedia's consensus as the consensus itself is out of tune with modern standards, in my opinion. I have never read a newspaper in my life, I do read publications who do publish newspapers, but I never read newspapers themselves, and presumably neither do most people part of Generation Z, presumably. - Evelyn Marie (leave a message · contributions) 21:47, 14 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Evelyn Marie: As a Gen Zer I don't read newspapers either besides online articles from The New York Times for Wikipedia purposes. But I'm sure you do realize that reliable sources come in all shapes and forms outside of newspapers, right? Otherwise, that Find Sources banner at the top of this AfD would only include a newspapers button. PantheonRadiance (talk) 22:30, 14 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I'm well aware, I was strictly referring to how Hemiauchenia only strictly referred to newspapers in their replies. - Evelyn Marie (leave a message · contributions) 22:32, 14 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - Good Mythical Morning is in my mind a talk show, similar to The Tonight Show Starring Jimmy Fallon, in that it is a long running episodic series and has similar traits to a talk show / late night show. Good Mythical Morning has received significant coverage since it premiered in 2012, and even despite there being over 2,000 episodes there is also significant amounts of prose in the article to warrant having the article exist. Not to mention, Good Mythical Morning isn't just a YouTube show. It also airs on the Roku Channel as well as of a couple months ago, and in my eyes its a TV show but in web form. So i'm saying keep here. Sourcing is a minor issue, but that can be rectified by adding citations in the prose, but even then the article still has over 70 references which suggests notability regardless. However it should be noted that even TV show episode lists on Wikipedia typically only have references for the viewer count for U.S. households or certain other metrics (e.g. as seen on List of The Vampire Diaries episodes), everything else is pretty much self-verifiable on any search engine. And to be honest, like I mentioned in a comment reply, having references for 2,000+ episodes would hit the post-expand include size limit pretty quickly, not to mention signiicantly increase the article size, so thats just not feasible. But notability is not an issue, GMM has and still does receives a decent amount of coverage, especially when they have episodes that have celebrity guests but even outside that GMM is still notable and receives views in the millions even today. - Evelyn Marie (leave a message · contributions) 21:14, 14 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. After having thought about it further, due to the significant lack of sourcing, and the fact that this article gets very few page views (only 2,000 in the past 30 days), it is clear that this specific episode list is not that useful, nor is it adequately sourced. And due to the lack of available sourcing aside from coverage on GMM celebrity guest episodes, there is no valid evidence that would result in this page being significantly improved to meet WP:GNG, and I honestly do not find value in only listing the most significant GMM episodes in this article personally. We can't rely on strictly primary sources, or episode aggregators like IMDb for sources. So, despite my initial sadness, I find reason to believe that this article is not notable enough to be encyclopedic in its current state. While the article does list a couple episodes that were removed from the show's episode catalog, it was few and far between, and there are playlists on YouTube that contain all publicly available Good Mythical Morning episodes. Having this massive article containing over 2,000 episodes is just a bit too unwieldy. - Evelyn Marie (leave a message · contributions) 23:14, 14 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    1: Ignoring the WP:OSE argument, episodic TV shows like The Vampire Diaries often have their lists of episodes split into articles about their particular seasons (ex. The Vampire Diaries (season 1)), and in those articles of a show's season, there are usually reliable sources describing the season and/or individual episodes on their own. In that case, the parent lists (ex. List of The Vampire Diaries episodes) serve more as a repository or guide. Even the Critical Role series has articles for individual seasons (or "campaigns"). The only way I could reasonably foresee this article being kept is if we split each season into individual articles, but even then this leads to another issue.
    2: How exactly are these seasons "really" defined? Did people just take this information from playlists of the videos, or are there actual reliable sources that confirm the delineation of each season? If you say the former, well congratulations. You just identified the second problem with this list. Not only do the episodes potentially have little reliable coverage, there's also a serious issue with original research seeping in the article. If we can't even verify the seasons of the show without resorting to either YouTube, IMDB or original research, that's a red flag in and of itself.
    3: "GMM receives views in the millions. Covering every single episode of GMM would be too much output for publications to cover on a significant level, especially since episodes air every day of the week, that's perhaps why they don't bother" That's literally the exact reason why this article is brought up for deletion in the first place - there's a potential lack of reliable sources that cover the topic as a whole per WP:NLIST. Popularity does not equal notability, because it's too subjective of a metric to properly define in an encyclopedic sense. No matter what topic, this site requires coverage of it in reliable sources. I'm not denying that many of the episodes have received coverage. However, including such a long list of episodes which a large portion being unverifiable just doesn't sit right with me. I won't vote Delete because I still think this has potential, but I think I'm gonna need a much stronger argument, preferably with actual sources, to sway my opinion to an unconditional Keep as it is. PantheonRadiance (talk) 22:25, 14 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Regarding issue 2, they are defined by Mythical's own season definitions - they specifically announce when a season ends and when a new season starts, same as how a TV series has its seasons announced. Original research doesn't matter in this instance when the seasons are announced by Mytical / Rhett & Link on social media and elsewhere. I don't even see why or how thats even a valid issue. - Evelyn Marie (leave a message · contributions) 22:28, 14 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    So now we're going into non-independent, primary source territory. Better, but we're still not making it to Notability Island anytime soon. Sure, primary doesn't mean bad and it can be used in certain contexts, but it doesn't really add to notability. Also, most media outlets typically write articles on notable TV shows whenever the creators announce a new season, which work as good secondary coverage for episodes. If GMM has sources like that whenever they announce a season, that would definitely help this article's case. I'm still looking for sources like that right now but haven't found much yet.
    Also, I understand what you meant earlier with talking about sources; I should've addressed you both. PantheonRadiance (talk) 22:50, 14 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I am changing my vote to Delete. See my updated statement above. :) - Evelyn Marie (leave a message · contributions) 23:14, 14 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Well, thank you for your responses. Personally I'd be comfortable voting a Redirect to GMM as an alternative to deletion, in hopes that someone in the future discovers that there's enough sources to create a more encyclopedic list of episodes for it. PantheonRadiance (talk) 00:45, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    @PantheonRadiance: YouTube channels don't get much coverage - unless something significant changes and GMM blows up in popularity again (as the show does receive far less views now than it did back during its peak, before YouTube's stupid algorithm changes along with viewers just growing out of it), I don't see a valid reasoning that could bring this article back while being adequately sourced, sadly. - Evelyn Marie (leave a message · contributions) 10:25, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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