Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of English given names

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was no consensus. It's obvious to me that this article needs improvement (someone has suggested making it List of names of English origin, which I think would work well), but that's not a reason for deletion, and there's nothing approaching consensus to get rid of it here. fuddlemark (fuddle me!) 05:33, 7 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

List of English given names[edit]

  • This is a duplicate of a former article, List of first names, that was on Vfd (now Afd) twice; the first time there was no consensus, and the second time it was deleted. How is this article different that allows it to be kept?? Georgia guy 00:50, 1 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/List of first names is a link to the original vfd, albeit for a slightly different page. Perhaps English names specifically is more encyclopedic? Additionally, although the end result of that page was "delete", it doesn't look like a very strong consensus. Snurks T C 00:55, 1 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. Potentially infinite lists are not encyclopaedic. Batmanand 00:56, 1 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. If we are going to have List of Slavic given names and all the other languages/nationalities, I don't think we should discriminate against English. -- JJay 01:22, 1 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • "if": probably not....mikka (t) 01:49, 1 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • one can always hope... -- JJay 01:51, 1 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. POV-ridden. Why on Earth Chauntele is English name? I say Frenchie. Duncan:Scots will kill you if you tell them it is English name. Samuel: Jew. Etc... And where is Leroy? mikka (t) 01:40, 1 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak keep - the idea of a list of specifically English names is OK, but this isn't a very good stab at it.Staffelde 01:53, 1 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - Thinking through the large number of practical and linguistic issues raised by this, I think it is better to avoid them and get rid of it. Any list involving "English" names needs much tighter control than seems practical on a list called what this is called. I have made a couple of alternative suggestions below Staffelde 16:42, 1 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep If we have a List of films ordered by uses of the word "fuck", which is about to have a keep AfD for the third time, why should we delete this article? The list of films is certainly also unsustainable and also will never be complete. Prodego talk 02:39, 1 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak keep per Staffelde. Royboycrashfan 03:10, 1 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Later we can add usage statistics! Ashibaka tock 03:16, 1 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete as POV. Most of them are "taken" names, like Isaac. --Ezeu 03:40, 1 February 2006 (UTC) Since Isaac has been removed, this vote wont make sense, and Cuiviénen makes a good point below, so I abstain.[reply]
  • Keep - Can be improved. Many voters on AfD need to remember that they, too, can edit the page. —Cuiviénen (Cuivië) 04:21, 1 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment - I have made substantial revisions to the male names section of the article. It should be clear now that, once the female names section of the article is also improved, the article will serve a serious purpose. —Cuiviénen (Cuivië) 05:19, 1 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • Comment - The female names section has also been fixed. There is now a large warning about adding names atop both lists. Please understand that this article now serves a real purpose. —Cuiviénen (Cuivië) 05:47, 1 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep, we can improve the article. --Terence Ong (恭喜发财) 05:23, 1 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

*Keep, there's no reason not to have this. How many verifiable English names can there be? Grandmasterka 07:49, 1 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

    • Any name ever given to anyone on the face of the planet that has any link, direct or indirect, to anything "English" - my name qualifies, how 'bout yours? Adhall 10:23, 1 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • I don't know your name, but I will bet you ten dollars (ten pounds?) that it isn't English. English names are not names of people form England but names that originated in the English language. Thus, Ethelred is English, but Elizabeth, which is Biblical, is not. —Cuiviénen (Cuivië) 14:23, 1 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
        • Actually, I think it should be kept and renamed "List of Anglo-Saxon given names". How's that? Grandmasterka 16:51, 1 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep article is clearly just a stub for the moment, but the subject is encyclopedic and ca be expanded. Eusebeus 07:57, 1 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete this has no content other than unverfied, uncited lists of what any editor claims to be an "English-given name", whatever that might be. A list entitled "Names of English origin" or "Names of French origin" would be accpetable because the etymology of the names can be verified. This type of list invites anyone to add their own name (no matter what the origin) without any grounds to dispute that the name doesn't belongs on the list. It would be more appropriate to name the article "List of people who have added their name to this list". This is nonsense - we can do much better than this. Adhall 08:42, 1 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete or define 'English'. Does it include English-Asian names, names of foreign origin used by Englsih peolpe - if the answer is 'yes' then any name at all could be listed -Doc ask? 09:10, 1 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment So long as the criteria are already defined by some widely accepted authority Adhall 09:31, 1 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Yes,but to my knowledge, no such authority exists. --Doc ask? 09:39, 1 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Exactly -- the criteria for an entry (as the list is now) is subjective and open to interpretation - it either needs to be rethought, renamed or deleted altogether. Adhall 10:13, 1 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep, potentially useful. Not sure how, just potentially. Adrian Lamo · (talk) · (mail) · 09:25, 1 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. --Agamemnon2 11:16, 1 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep as per List of Slavic given names Jcuk 11:27, 1 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete As per this: [1] any list with 75,000 or more potential entries has no place here. Just zis  Guy, you know? [T]/[C] 12:38, 1 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment - I have edited this page precisely so it DOES NOT have the potential to contain 75,000 entries. All names on the page are now verifiably English in origin, not Biblical, not Celtic, not French and not anything else. "List of English given names" is not the same as "List of given names in England" and should not be treated as such. As to the earlier user who mentioned ASian-English names, obviously they should not be included because they are Asian, not English. —Cuiviénen (Cuivië) 14:17, 1 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Beg to difer. If Norse-origin names, Angles and Saxon-orign names (originally Germanic) and many more of the races that have emigrated to Southern Britian over the centuries are considered 'English'. Then why not Asian immigrants? Or are we using some 'pure-English-race' mythology? --Doc ask? 14:28, 1 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Mythology? No, there is definitely an "English race." I hesitate to say "race" because we sound like we're talking about racism here, which this is not a discussion of, but there are uniquely English aspects to England that do not involve borrowing from other countries, including ethnicity and names. Your own narrow view that England has no culture and no heritage is itself POV; this article is (now) not. There is a "native" population of England just as much as their is a native population of Scandinavia - would you include Mohammed on a List of Scandinavian given names because there are a few Muslims in Norway named Mohammed? No! —Cuiviénen (Cuivië) 18:52, 1 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment** Out of interest, of the "approved" names left on the list, of the 13 male names, 4 are English forenames, by which I mean derived from Anglo=-Saxon; 8 are "imported" from non-English languages (French, German, Old Norse etc) and one - Lincoln - is a surname reused as a given name - and if that sort of name is to be counted, the list is potentially infinite. Of the 18 female names, again, 4 are of Anglo-Saxon origin, 8 are non-English, and a depressing 6 are surnames recycled. On this showing, I think I am forced to conclude that pro tem this is a bit beyond the powers of Wikipedia to make anything useful of, and I have changed my vote above to Delete. I might consider supporting a properly constructed and monitored article such as List of Anglo-Saxon forenames, List of Medieval Christian names used in England, or List of Forenames commonly used in England in the 19th Century, for example - but such lists would be of near-dictionary length and would need ferocious sourcing.Staffelde 16:42, 1 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • The name Lincoln, as described in its article, was originally a given name that evolved into a surname, not the other way around. —Cuiviénen (Cuivië) 18:52, 1 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
        • You must be reading a different article from Lincoln, or you are understanding "given name" in some different sense. Are you trying to extend "given name" to cover place-names as well? Lincoln started as the name of a town, then became a surname. This article, if words mean anything, is about names given as forenames, so L is a town-name, or a surname taken from the town-name, used as a forename. This is a perfect illustration of the sorts of problems that this article generates, and of the obstacles of understanding which will make it extremely difficult to get anywhere useful with it. Staffelde 00:17, 2 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • Potentially infinite lists (or lists of 75,000 entries) are all over Wikipedia, so the precedent is already set. Carlossuarez46 21:20, 3 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. Other such "List of x given names" have failed AfD: Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/List_of_East_African_given_names, Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/List_of_Vietnamese_given_names. The List of Slavic given names is probably only still around because no one has nominated it for AfD yet. Peyna 16:43, 1 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep ensuring all entries are sourced (sources in the Wikipedia articles for names that have one are OK) SP-KP 18:40, 1 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. Fairly small list, with a specific criteria. Needs some work and references, but not deletion worthy. Turnstep 19:55, 1 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak keep Figuring out what name is considered English or has English origins maybe POV and I think that's where my problem for this list arises, but then again there are other lists for other nationalities and we can't discriminate against English names. --† Ðy§ep§ion † 21:39, 1 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong keep It's an interesting article, if sourced, especially when you consider how English tends to borrow from other languages to form vocabulary. I'd like to see what names are English in origin. James Kendall 21:43, 1 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong delete The other namelist were not substantial enough, so why should this one be.CharonX 22:05, 1 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. Needs one hell of an expansion, but keep. Encyclopedic and useful. StarryEyes 00:06, 2 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per the neutrality argument. Calwatch 06:05, 2 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak keep. It needs a lot of work, but it is appropriate encyclopedic material. We need a consistent policy to all such lists of names. RayGates 03:04, 3 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep and improve it. We have lists of names from other languages. Carlossuarez46 21:16, 3 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete: unmaintainable, very low encyclopedical value. Pavel Vozenilek 22:07, 4 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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