Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Les Légions Noires (3rd nomination)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. There are reliable sources listed both in this discussion and on the talk page (though that link is only available through the Internet Archive now), and a cursory look at Google Books reveals multiple sources on the music. Hopefully this settles the issue once and for all. Krakatoa Katie 07:11, 4 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Les Légions Noires[edit]

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Non-notable music scene; possibly merge with black metal if not deleted.

With a paltry number of references, I cannot see how this article establishes notability of this scene. Only two of the bands mentioned actually have their own articles, and the vast majority of all of the bands (14, by my count) have only released a few demo tapes, most of them only a single demo. Unlike the Early Norwegian black metal scene, this loose collection of unremarkable bands only have the fact that they're based in France in common; this 'scene' has not created any lasting influence on the genre and have done nothing to establish notability. — Richard BB 08:12, 26 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

They were important for the French scene, see the MkM quote I added to the Black Metal article. --217/83 13:56, 26 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment, I cannot find the quote you mentioned; could you direct me to it? — Richard BB 17:26, 26 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I guess you searched for the French name, not the English one. While I’m at it, I can direct you to the original interview. And for those who don’t want to click: “The french scene was quite easy to divide : either you were NSBM and you had the support from zine and the audience, or you were part of the black legions and you had that ‘cult’ aura... Since Antaeus was a band from Paris, not performing nsbm nor ‘scandinavean [sic!] black metal’ with all its cliché, we did not fit anywhere, yet we never did change to adapt.” --217/83 07:51, 27 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of France-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 16:54, 26 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 16:54, 26 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: I don't know if people without accounts are allowed to weigh in on deletion discussions so feel free to edit this out if that is not the case. Much like the two previous nominations the deletion request is biased.

>> this loose collection of unremarkable bands only have the fact that they're based in France in common

The bands were connected by region, ideology and above all sound. Even a cursory look at the collective reveals that. It's true that claims like these are hard to verify but yours are at least as POV.

>> this 'scene' has not created any lasting influence on the genre and have done nothing to establish notability.

How would we measure this lasting influence? The fact that unlike every other local scene LLN is still spoken of over 20 years later? The fact that a lot of prominent Black Metal bands (Satanic Warmaster, Hell Militia, Deathspell Omega, Gestapo 666, Peste Noire, Bekhira, et al) claim to be influenced by LLN?

Now I understand if this article was nominated because of poor quality or lack of sources, I doubt among Wikipedia editors there are a lot of people who own early 90's Black Metal fanzines, but to claim LLN had no impact on Black Metal is simply false.

It's true that there will probably never be a "featured article" about Legions Noires in Wikipedia simply because of the secretive nature of the scene and the difficulty of seperating the countless rumors surrounding it from actual facts but LLN certainly left it's mark in the scope of the evolution of black metal sound, aesthetics and ethos.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.220.221.249 (talk • contribs)

Comments. Yes, IPs are of course welcome to contribute. I'd take issue with a number of things you've said. Firstly, I cannot see any bias in my nomination: I've done it entirely for the reasons I stated in my opening paragraphs. Next, the ideology and sound that are supposed to connect them seem to be no different to black metal as a whole. As I said, the only thing they have in common (aside from the genre) is geography. Thirdly, we could measure lasting influence through citations and other such evidence. There are plenty of other scenes that are spoken of 20 years later – the Early Norwegian scene in particular. However, I can see no evidence that this one is. Next, there appears to be no evidence whatsoever of the bands you listed being influenced by LLN. If this were true, it would be able to be sourced. Currently, the article does not establish any such notoriety. Much of your argument seems to be centered around the fact that LLN has left some kind of lasting impression on the music world, but my point is that this article does not demonstrate that. I see no reason why this the contents of article cannot simply be merged into the black metal article. — Richard BB 17:26, 26 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

There is no sound of “black metal as a whole”, and there were still enough bands playing the Greek style, Finnish style etc. that everyone knew that. There is an interview with a Vlad Tepes member who rejects the latter for being black Grindcore/Noise not Black Metal, published in Kill Yourself!!! Magazine (see Full Moon Productions site); according to him, Sigillum Diaboli from Finland “play grind- music, not Black metal”. And as Devil worshippers like Euronymous and MLO members like Jon Nödtveidt do not have exactly the same ideology (though both are death worshipping, unlike LaVeyans), there is no way the ideology could be “be no different to black metal as a whole”; besides, Euronymous thought it is okay to spread Black Metal as long as there is no ideological compromise (as Dissection and Watain later did), whereas the Black Legions wanted to remain underground, which is an important difference.

I agree with Richard that there are enough “other scenes that are spoken of 20 years later”, but it’s mostly the Norwegian scene, the Black Legions, and the Polish one. The BlazeBirth Hall (early Russian NSBM scene) is not that unknown either, but far less known than those mentioned before.

I don’t know if all those bands were really influenced by the Black Legions, but some definitely were, and this can be referenced; the German article names Horna and Xasthur, both with a reference. I would appreciate it if the IP user could gather some references for the bands they mentioned. --217/83 07:51, 27 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It'd be great keeping the article based on these reasons, but I'm afraid I simply cannot see that what you've said is currently demonstrated by the article or its sources. As it stands (though I would hope for improvement) it looks like this article can be merged into black metal. — Richard BB 08:01, 27 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Keep: I'm not sure why I'm bothering with this, but anyway - This source seems to provide notable coverage. Between this and Terrorizer, while not exactly ripe with notable coverage, LLN does seem to have some basic notability. If the IP commenter can actually list some of the zines the band was mentioned in during the 90's, that would help too.--¿3family6 _contribs 16:18, 27 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

My apologies for the poor formatting of my posts, I haven't used Wikipedia in a long time so I'm somewhat lost with the code. I also do not want to turn this discussion into quote-mining so I try to respond in brief.

To expand upon my claim that "unlike every other local scene LLN is still spoken of over 20 years later?" I was more so pointing at the other highly local scenes of the early 90's that were influenced by the "black metal mafia" thing they had going on in Norway. Even my then hometown in Finland had a an "occult circle" of it's own that consisted mostly of demo-level underground black metal trash and this thing was common all over Europe. My point was that absolutely no one remembers any of those scenes but LLN is something most underground black metal fans can identify by sound, iconography and overall look alone. The BlazeBirth Hall thing was the only one that came even close Legions Noires in terms of notability and influence but that came bit later in the genres musical evolution. Though I can understand if importance within a niche crowd in an already niche genre does not warrant a Wikipedia article.

I wish I could source my list of bands better by I fear I can only come up with higly anecdotal stuff like similarities in sound and aesthetics that wouldn't fly in an encyclopedia. Interviews from obscure Black Metal fanzines are not a thing that's archieved in the internet. The only thing I could find with some quick googling was Satanic Warmaster listing the pivotal LLN release "March to the Black Holocaust" as one of the "most important releases" and mentioning both Mütiilation and Vlad Tepes as sources of inspiration. Satanic Warmaster interview (in finnish) At times like these I kinda wish I still had my blackmetal.fi account active.

Alas, as I said before there will probably never be a great article about Les Legions Noires in Wikipedia simply because unless people involved spill the beans sourcing it would be difficult but I still feel the scene left enough of an influence to warrant it's own article here. I could go on about what I personally think were the contributions of LLN to Black Metal but I feel that would not get us anywhere. If Richard BB or someone else could perhaps point out some critical information of what we are missing here I guess we could start working on improving this article from there. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.220.221.249 (talk) 16:27, 27 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.