Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Laurence B. Brown

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Michig (talk) 06:15, 9 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Laurence B. Brown[edit]

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

Author of non notable self published books. Almost no library holdings in worldcat. DGG ( talk ) 01:04, 2 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Authors-related deletion discussions. czar · · 01:13, 2 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Saudi Arabia-related deletion discussions. czar · · 01:13, 2 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Islam-related deletion discussions. czar · · 01:14, 2 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. DGG knows his stuff and is much more adept at finding sourcing than most of us are; when he says that someone doesn't appear to be notable, we shouldn't doubt him unless we have the sourcing at hand. The coverage currently present is minimal and insufficient for sustaining an encyclopedia article. Nyttend (talk) 02:49, 2 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. He is the author of non-notable books which have not been widely reviewed or obtained by many libraries. Being a Muslim convert does not make one notable. George Custer's Sabre (talk) 03:09, 2 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. He was described by the Saudi Gazette as "a well-known convert to Islam", and he is well-known among Muslim activists. His views are very much in demand from Muslim think-tanks, websites, and media. If it's true that completely insignificant internet memes like Boxxy deserve their own pages then there should be no dispute that actually influential people like Brown do deserve their own entries as well. Brown certainly has been discussed or interviewed by a number of reliable third parties so he meets this criteria for notability. It seems like a major reason why articles like this get deleted is because most Wikipedia users are irreligious and therefore are unable to understand the importance that religion plays in the lives of other people. Popular Muslim evangelists like Brown actually play a more important role in the world than the internet memes and Youtube series which do get extensive coverage on Wikipedia.CurtisNaito (talk) 03:43, 2 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Re. "most Wikipedia users are irreligious", let me add that I AM religious (and Muslim), CurtisNaito, but I still think Mr Brown lacks notability and the page should be deleted. Demonstrate your case that Brown's "views are very much in demand from Muslim think-tanks" with evidence. And as for the usefulness and reliability of the Saudi Gazette, don't forget that it also describes Brown as something he certainly is not: "a renowned scholar". George Custer's Sabre (talk) 04:07, 2 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I believe he is quite well regarded among Muslim activists. Abdur-Rahman Abou Almajd, an Egyptian writer and columnist on Islamic affairs, said of his works "I am amazed at his abilities for such intricate analysis of the bible(s) and the Quran and his ability to transcribe it in a way that can easily be followed." We could say that he is something like the David Barton of the Islamic world. His followers view him as a top-notch scholar though his "scholarship" is not well regarded outside of activist circles. I first encountered his works at a meeting of Muslims students at UBC Vancouver and the Saudi Arabian students told me that he is very well regarded throughout Saudi Arabia. As noted in the article, he works as an orator at the Islamic Research Foundation. As I said, we should start out by deleting articles like Boxxy and The Annoying Orange before we tackle actually important people like Laurence B. Brown.CurtisNaito (talk) 12:55, 2 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Dear CurtisNaito, with respect, we don't make delete/keep decisions on a comparitive basis. We judge individual articles purely on their own merits (or lack of merits). You provided no verifiable evidence of Brown's notability; just anecdotal evidence. George Custer's Sabre (talk) 04:52, 3 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Keep The amount of hits that this guy brings up when searching on google and other engines is a heck of a lot. To me it seems surprising that he is up for deletion. I've spent a day reading up about him. I vote a strong keep here. (Solution55 (talk) 08:41, 2 May 2013 (UTC))[reply]

The amount of hits someone gets in Google is irrelevant. (WP:GHITS) A person, place, thing, or concept can bring up millions of hits, yet none of them might be usable as a reliable source. I'll see what I can find, but saying that there are a lot of hits might just mean that there are a lot of merchant sources or links to places that are otherwise unusable. It might mean that he's popular, but popularity does not give notability as far as Wikipedia is concerned. Any notability must be sourced by way of reliable sources, but like I said- I'll see what I can do. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 10:26, 2 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yes I hear what you're saying, but I wasb't just referring to the amount of hits on Google he gets and BTW: Google isn't the only search engine around. Looking at the content and the sites with articles that come up about him are an indication of his notability. Anyway that's what I have come across. Cheers (Solution55 (talk) 09:39, 8 May 2013 (UTC))[reply]

So far Google has been one of the better search engines I've had experience with, although I do regularly supplement that by searching JSTOR and my college's access to the various scholarly searches. I still have to repeat that hits don't mean a thing as far as Wikipedia is concerned. There are a lot of false positives that can show up, as well as the aforementioned merchant sources and various other unusable sources. I've had instances in other AfDs where something will come up with millions of hits, yet none of those will be usable. The number of Ghit results or search engine results haven't sufficed as a justification for notability for years. I understand your frustration, but that is not an argument that will help this article survive AfD. The only time an argument along those lines will work is if you can show where JSTOR searches show that many different journals cite him as a reference- and for that, you'd need it to be around the hundreds to keep on that basis alone. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 11:00, 8 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. I tried to find sources, but ultimately they just weren't there. I did find where he's cited as a source here and there, but not in any way that would show that he's such an overwhelming figure that he would pass notability guidelines on that criteria. The thing about the "an important figure or is widely cited by peers or successors" part of WP:AUTHOR is that the cites would have to say that the person did something that was incredibly landmark along the lines of creating the wheel for whatever field(s) the person was in or is cited in hundreds upon hundreds of peer reviewed journals and academic texts. I found a handful of places that mentioned him, but not enough to show that he'd pass under that guideline. The thing about that criteria is that it's implied that if someone is that much of an important figure and is so widely cited, they'd have received direct coverage about them. We don't necessarily require that someone along the lines of Dr. Brown receive as much coverage as Elle McPherson or even Francis Crick, but we do need more coverage than what has been placed on Brown's article. He hasn't been the focus of any articles in reliable sources, nor have either of his books received substantial coverage. I would say that Brown might be usable as a reliable source, but being a reliable source does not automatically give notability. He's one of thousands of people who, while being respected in their fields, do not pass notability guidelines here on Wikipedia. Don't get me wrong- it's frustrating that we can have articles on people for things that seem shallow to you or I, but the difference is that Boxxy has received coverage in enough reliable sources to pass notability guidelines while Brown hasn't. That's just the way our media works and while I wish it were otherwise, it's not up to Wikipedia to make up for the inequality of coverage for any and all persons or subjects out there. I'm not saying that anyone is trying to actively promote Brown, just that he doesn't pass notability guidelines and we can't give him a free pass because anyone sees him as smarter than the entire cast of Jersey Shore and thus more deserving. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 10:50, 2 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

On your "being a reliable source does not automatically give notability" — absolutely right. For example, any Ph.D. dissertation from a real university is a reliable source, but the vast majority of authors thereof aren't notable. Nyttend (talk) 15:09, 2 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. Having an article in the Saudi Gazette and not much else except Google hits to YouTube videos and merchant sources seems to indicate Brown is on the verge of notability, but not quite there yet. Presently fails WP:AUTHOR, but no problem recreating should more reliable sources conferring notability arise in the future. - LuckyLouie (talk) 18:18, 4 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note from the article itself that he has also been mentioned by Arab News, American Muslim FRESH Magazine, and the Islamic Research Foundation. His first novel has been reviewed by a substantial 123 people on Amazon.com.CurtisNaito (talk) 03:00, 5 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Dear CurtisNaito, Amazon customer reviews are not an evidential source. George Custer's Sabre (talk) 04:53, 5 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. Notability guidelines require extensive coverage, and that isn't the case here. MezzoMezzo (talk) 11:07, 6 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.