Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Koza - Yitzhak Suknik

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Stifle (talk) 08:17, 19 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Koza - Yitzhak Suknik[edit]

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I'm just not seeing any reliable, independent, secondary sources that discuss him with significant coverage, rather than the situation he was in. The piece on the Warsaw Ghetto Museum site which appears to provide the most well-formed significant coverage of him is written by two authors who both appear to be related to him, so not independent. VernoWhitney (talk) 21:14, 11 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: History and Poland. VernoWhitney (talk) 21:14, 11 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Week delete or draftify. Outside [1] I cannot verify that the subject has received SIGCOV, and one article (of borderline quality - WUM is reliable, but the piece is short, with no footnotes, and pretty much represents a newspaper, not scholarly, level of quality) is IMHO not enough. That said, there likely is a problem with his name being spelled in different ways - I tried several and got nothing. Much of the article is unreferenced, and I don't think we can AGF that WP:THEREMUSTBESOURCES, nor that the cited sources contain SIGCOV. Per WP:V and WP:GNG, responsibility to show that the subject is notable lies on the article's author. If they want to work on this, this can be draftified. If not, I am afraid that the article represents a level of quality that's just too low to warrant keeping in the mainspace (problems of V, GNG, MoS style, etc.). Sure, some are surmounable, but taken together I think this is too much. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 09:43, 12 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 09:45, 12 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Although part of a notable organisation (Jewish Combat Organization), Suknik himself has relatively few mentions, even within this article. Although the author of the article states "Koza's role in it is not to be underestimated", most of the details are about the ZOB's actions, and of the leaders - the details about Suknik's involvement are reasonably sparse. I have no doubt that he was a heroic individual, and played an important part within the ZOB, but from what is presented here, I do not feel that there is enough to show his notability as an individual within the organisation in the way that Mordechai Anielewicz as leader is. PhantomSteve/talk¦contribs\ 14:05, 13 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I am at a loss here and to be honest quite frustrated by the barriers and walls to building this article.

1. How many sources do you actually need to be sufficient ? I can provide you will ALL the sources about Koza if needed. I have tried to pare the content down to fit with the tone i.e. not quote large chunks from the sources.

2. If you read anything about the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising (of which there is very little on Wikipedia - which makes me wonder why) very few people beyond the main few characters are ever mentioned or written about in depth and many of the combat fighters are hardly written about or mentioned. Whilst he many not have been a leader is it not worth including his story if it adds something into the picture of the Uprising, again given that there is so little on Wikipedia ?

3. You complain about the name variations. Please go to https://new.getto.pl/en/explore/search. Try Sukenik or Sukiennik. Also try any other surname and see what variants come up.

4. The purpose of adding the Further Reading is so that interested readers can follow up and learn more about the resistance in the Ghetto and events on the important dates so they find out more about these events. It is support material.

5. Reliable, independent, secondary sources ??? The External links to the articles written by myself and another person are placed there so people can read about Koza's story in more depth ... that is all. The main sources are from 4 books. What more do you want ... copies of these pages to see page numbers ? Please let me know.

6. I 'm afraid I am lost with many of your acronyms e.g. SIGCOV. so cannot respond to these issues.

7. It would be a shame to pare down the information around Koza's actions as it gives context to his actions. It is not stated in the article but the ZOB had very few firearms to stave off the German action and within each combat group there may have been at max. only one rifle which would have been in the hands of one person with experience or expertise. Koza was one of these.

For all the above reasons I do object to your 'consideration for deletion' . If however you do not find my arguments sufficient please let me know why and instruct me how to make it a 'Draft' until one and all are satisfied. JSKutcher (talk) 09:15, 14 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Comment -- I know little of the subject and nothing of the individual, but I am concerned that this is merely a bio of an individual soldier (in this case resistance fighter), who is not individually separately notable, or more so that any other resistance member. Peterkingiron (talk) 20:07, 14 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
There were ~ 500 ZOB resistance fighters. The vast majority joined because the rest of their family had died in the Ghetto from starvation or had been shipped off to Treblinka extermination camp. They had nothing left to lose but their lives. They were in their late teens or early twenties. Very few survived, either dying during the Ghetto Uprising, or in the Warsaw Uprising or as members of partisan groups outside the Ghetto, and what memory remains of them is scattered in limited sources. For the vast majority the only record of them is their name.

I would therefore suggest that having a story about one of the soldier would add to picture of the Ghetto Uprising. The few names that are repeatedly used when mentioning the Uprising are of course the Leadership. There are not many sources that go beyond this. Yitzhaks story brings out the profile of a fighter in the ZOB, from the motive to join the fact of their short lives under the most appalling conditions and therefore paints a wider picture than just him. Why is this any less important ? JSKutcher (talk) 08:36, 16 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - insufficient coverage of the article subject as an individual to warrant inclusion Such-change47 (talk) 06:01, 16 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I am planning to redraft this page to deal with as many of the issues as I can. Can someone please advise me how to put it into draft until I have completed this redraft ? JSKutcher (talk) 08:38, 16 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - respectfully, not necessary. No amount of editing can overcome a lack of notability. See: WP:OVERCOME. Such-change47 (talk) 01:34, 19 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Draftification - appears best, given the article creator above promises improvements. For now, however, notability does not seem to be met - GizzyCatBella🍁 14:20, 18 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - respectfully, irrelevant. No amount of editing can overcome a lack of notability. See: WP:OVERCOME. Such-change47 (talk) 01:34, 19 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.