Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kirrin Island

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was redirect to The Famous Five (series). A tricky one but the delete reasons are stronger IMO. However, leaving a redirect as a plausible search term. Tone 20:53, 6 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Kirrin Island[edit]

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

Article has been tagged as unreferenced since May 2008 ~dom Kaos~ (talk) 23:46, 27 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Literature-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 15:36, 28 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 15:36, 28 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. The nominator's concern can easily be addressed by editing, as I have done using a couple of the hundreds of results from the Google Books search linked in the nomination. This must be one of the best-known fictional locations in British literature. Phil Bridger (talk) 09:48, 1 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Nomination rejected: Lack of references doesn't mean references don't exist.--Milowent • ^talkblp-r 05:12, 2 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Delete No evidence of real-world notability. The article itself is a plot-only description of a fictional work, written with an in-universe perspective that lacks real-world perspective, and it is an unnecessary content fork. The subject of the article does not meet the criteria of the general notability guideline since there is no significant coverage in reliable third-party sources independent of the subject to presume notability. All Google hits show notability for The Famous Five book series, but, with the exception of mentions about the book Five on Kirrin Island Again, all mentions about Kirrin Island are trivial and do not show significant coverage for the fictional location. Jfgslo (talk) 18:15, 2 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

How are the sources in the article, and the hundreds more found by the Google Books search linked in the nomination, not significant coverage in reliable third party sources? Please address this particular article and discussion rather than copy and paste an argument that you have used elsewhere. Phil Bridger (talk) 20:50, 2 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Quite simple. Most of the Google hits from Google books that mention Kirrin Island are for mentions about of the book Five on Kirrin Island Again, not the fictional location. If you add -"Five on Kirrin Island" to the search, no reliable secondary source appears in the search, merely trivial mentions and almost all of them related to the plot of the series, not even one that treats in detail the fictional location of Kirrin Island. The two sources used in the article also don't treat in detail the fictional location. The first one only mentions it four times within the text and they are passing mentions in regards to the plot, not in regards to detailed commentary about the fictional location. The second source mentions Kirrin Island also four times, and again it's not commentary about the fictional location but commentary about the plot of the series. And two sources do not constitute significant coverage. So, with no detailed commentary about the fictional location or significant coverage in third-party sources, there is no presumption of notability to warrant the keeping of the article about the fictional location. Jfgslo (talk) 05:58, 3 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Strong keep -Any concerns can easily be addressed by editing. Deleting this is not the answer at all. For me strong keep on this one.--BabbaQ (talk) 19:47, 4 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Ron Ritzman (talk) 00:19, 6 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment from an internet search it appears that TV/film adaptations exist. Information about what location was used for Kirrin Island could be added to this page, and would be "out of universe" coverage. There is already some out-of-universe description here, but it's fairly near the "trivial" line. Searching for "Kirrin Island" with -"Five on Kirrin Island" is not helpful: any non-trivial source about e.g. inspirations for the island would be likely to mention that book title. TheGrappler (talk) 00:55, 6 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Delete I accept that this is a difficult one but I have to agree with Jfgslo. No-one would question the notability of the Famous Five books, or that Kirrin Island features frequently in them. But it does not seem to me that the island has any significance outside that context, and that it is within the Famous Five article that it belongs. I accept that Wikipedia isn't always consistent in dealing with fictional places and characters, and that Google isn't the only basis on which to make that judgement. But if we take the opposite extreme, that of Lilliput where the fictional place has overtaken the original book in popular culture (to the extent that Hollywood apparently cannot tell the difference), we can try to place Kirrin Island somewhere on a continuum and for me it lies within and not outside the books. But I can understand the passion of those for whom Kirrin Island may perhaps have had a very real hold on their imagination. I note, too, what TheGrappler has to say about the real world setting and that might indeed tip the balance.AJHingston (talk) 01:01, 6 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.