Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Josef Schreiber

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Daniel (talk) 04:33, 20 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Josef Schreiber[edit]

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Fails WP:SOLDIER. Received a relatively common award and only had a bunker named after him. Lettler^{hello • contribs} 14:51, 4 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. Lettler^{hello • contribs} 14:51, 4 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Germany-related deletion discussions. Lettler^{hello • contribs} 14:51, 4 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Weak Keep the Knights Cross arguably meets #1 of WP:SOLDIER, but I think notability comes from Bundeswehr naming a barracks after him. Mztourist (talk) 03:06, 5 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Comment, lean delete: I am not sure over this nomination. The decision to name a barracks after someone must surely be indicative of notability but is not a consideration in WP:GNG and cannot be decisive. I do not speak German but do not see any basis for notability in the largely directory-style sources currently cited. Do we know how much discussion there is in Falsche Glorie: das Traditionsverständnis der Bundeswehr which is the only WP:RS? I think the best solution is probably for any relevant biographical details to be covered within a future article on the barracks concerned and/or a future article on the Bundeswehr and World War II. WP:SOLDIER is only an essay, in any case, and there is no way that every recipient of the Knight's Cross is de facto notable. —Brigade Piron (talk) 17:57, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 16:38, 11 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. Barracks named for him. Matters not that it was small. Bundeswehr barracks were small because the army was small. Article should cover basics of his service and in particular elaborate on the activities that illuminate why he was considered a role model in post was Germany. It’s not like he was a traitor or anything, or an incompetent like Braxton Bragg. auntieruth (talk) 20:59, 11 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Leaning keep In general terms, KC w/OL recipients where the award has been for valour in combat (which this appears to be) have been found after examination to be around the threshold of presumed notability established by WP:SOLDIER, but having a Bundeswehr barracks named after him is a significant additional factor, as it signifies that he was seen (at the time at least) as someone from the Nazi era whose actions were laudatory enough to be a model for the post-war military. There will be sources that explain why his name was chosen for a barracks. There has also been some revision/criticism in recent German historiography of the Bundeswehr and its naming of barracks, and I wouldn't be surprised to learn that there has been discussion of the naming this barracks among the German academics who have written on such matters. Perhaps Assayer is aware of whether this is the case? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:05, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Knight's Cross with Oak Leaves clearly qualifies per WP:SOLDIER #1, even if the unadorned Knight's Cross does not. -- Necrothesp (talk) 11:09, 13 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Comment, lean delete: There is indeed some recent research on the policy of naming barracks by the Bundeswehr. Frank Hagemann commented on these in an essay on “Tradition und Neuausrichtung der Bundeswehr“, in: Tradition für die Bundeswehr, ed. by Birk/Heinemann/Lange, Berlin 2012 (it’s been published as BoD, but it’s a reliable source as it was written by scholars). According to Hagemann, during his tenure as secretary of defence Franz-Josef Strauß stubbornly resisted the naming of barracks after members of the Wehrmacht. Only when Kai-Uwe von Hassel succeeded him in office, a number of barracks were named after soldiers of the Wehrmacht during the mid- and late Sixties. Among them were the now infamous Dietl-barracks in Füssen (1965) and the Oberfeldwebel-Schreiber-Kaserne in 1967. There is nonetheless not much scholarly biographical research on Schreiber himself. Walter Nutz discusses a Landser-magazine dedicated to him in "Der Krieg als Abenteuer und Idylle. Landser-Hefte und triviale Kriegsromane," in: Norbert Honsza (ed.): Untersuchungen zur populären Literatur im 20. Jahrhundert (Acta Universitatis Wratislaviensis, Band 853 (Germanica Wratislaviensia, Band 62)), 1987, ISSN 0239-6661, pp. 99–115. Jakob Knab follows closely (including many quotes as a means to distance himself from the language) the Standortbroschüre Dreißig Jahre Garnison Immendingen. There is also a brief biographical sketch in the local history by Vögele/Dreyer, Immendingen. Geschichte einer Gemeinde an der Donauversinkung (1989). Their language is clearly biased, too („Josef Schreibers große Zeit begann mit dem Rußlandfeldzug.“ = Josef Schreiber’s great time began with the Russian campaign) Since the barracks have been disbanded anyway, there is not a great chance that there will be any detailed study of Schreiber’s biography in the near future.

To give you an idea of the current lines of discussion I may refer to an essay by Markus Renner, “Ist das noch Tradition – oder muss das weg?,” on the Marseille-barracks in Appen. (in: Die Luftwaffe und ihre Traditionen, ed. by Birk/Möllers, Berlin 2019) As Renner points out, even the Nazi propaganda had difficulties dealing with unreliable and tainted sources, and those unreliable sources remained a problem after the war. Most important was Fritz Dettmann’s “Mein Freund Marseille” of 1944. When the barracks were named after Marseille in 1975 that seemed to be a legitimate act. With the new guidelines, however, enacted by the Ministry of Defence in 1982, the Bundeswehr tradition had to honor the norms of the Grundgesetz, and the barracks should have been renamed already.

Thus, given the scarcity of reliable sources, I hardly see how a reliable bio of Schreiber could be written. Wikipedia is not to preserve traditions that the Bundeswehr has long since abandoned.----Assayer (talk) 16:15, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.