Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Joe Moran

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. The arguments for deletion within this article centred on a misapplication of WP:ATHLETE, since hurling is not an Olympic sport, so we have to look at the highest available amateur level. In this case, the consensus appears to be that these players meet that "highest" standard. One comment I would make is that many of these are 1-3 line stubs that say basically the same thing, and redirects to some list of players might be more efficient until their careers provide them with more specific coverage. That is, however, and editorial issue since there is no consensus here for me to take such an action. Fritzpoll (talk) 13:06, 5 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Joe Moran[edit]

A young fellow who plays hurling with his local club. Notability that I can perceive: zero. (I got to his page while looking for Joe Moran, unrelated author of the fine book Queuing for Beginners; since there was no article about him, I later went on to create one.)

I am also nominating the following related pages because they're about his teammates and thus are similarly about young sportsmen of (as yet) no discernable notability:

This debate has been included in the list of Athletes-related deletion discussions and the list of Living people-related deletion discussions. / Morenoodles (talk) 09:07, 28 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep all. As I read the articles, the team in question plays in the top level of the sport, i.e. division 1 of the National Hurling League, which suggests the team members meet WP:ATHLETE. JulesH (talk) 10:20, 28 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. I see nothing in National Hurling League or related articles that indicates it is a professional league, which means that Moran et al. do not qualify under WP:ATHLETE unless they have competed in the Olympics. THF (talk) 11:05, 28 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- You know that hurling isn't an Olympic sport, right? --Metropolitan90 (talk) 18:07, 28 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That just means that amateur hurlers aren't per se notable unless they meet other WP:N criteria. The top Wiffleball players don't get Wikipedia entries, either. THF (talk) 18:09, 28 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

What WP:ATHLETE says about amateur athletes is that the following are notable; People who have competed at the highest amateur level of a sport, usually considered to mean the Olympic Games or World Championships. So if you have played at the highest amateur level of your sport you can qualify. It doesn't matter if your sport doesn't have Olympic Games or World Championships (or didn't when you played). This is why a hurler like Christy Ring, a Gaelic footballer like Peter Canavan or a 1960s/1970s rugby union player like Colin Meads who have references to show their notablility most definitely qualify for inclusion. Tameamseo (talk) 13:25, 2 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comparing Hurling to Wiffleball demonstrates your total lack of understand of the topic Gnevin (talk) 13:15, 2 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes: many more people play Wiffleball and Ultimate frisbee than hurling. Which proves my point. THF (talk) 13:27, 2 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No it proves that more people living in America than Ireland. I'm sure more people play Wiffleball than Rugby union or drive F1 cars should we delete all the Rugby players and racing drivers too ? When was the last time 80,000 people turned up to see a Wiffleball or Ultimate game? Gnevin (talk) 14:29, 2 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Besides WP:ILIKEIT, where is the objective dividing line that distinguishes Wiffleball from hurling under WP:ATHLETE? That's all I'm saying. We include top professional athletes and amateur athletes who compete in worldwide championships. A Christy Ring does not meet WP:ATHLETE, but gets an article because he meets WP:BIO. If someone wants to create a Cork County hurling team article, that perhaps meets WP:N. THF (talk) 14:49, 2 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The dividing line is 80,000 people in Croke Park, units of the GAA across the world, RTÉ and TV3 Ireland broadcasting live game. Hours of radio air time, Thousand of websites. Christy Ring doesn't meet athlete catch a grip would you ? Sports players don't have to be paid to be notable. If you had your way you'd probaly delete everyone in Category:Hurlers because they don't met your concept of a paid sports man. Gnevin (talk) 15:31, 2 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

WP:AGF, please, I've already said that Christy Ring is notable, and I'm open-minded about this. Educate me: is there a reliable and comprehensive hurling website akin to http://www.baseball-reference.com that articles about minor players can cite? If so, that in conjunction with your argument might persuade me to change my !vote. THF (talk) 00:35, 3 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

If I can interrupt...a hurling statistics website with player profiles does exist, but unfortunately it only covers the Championship phase of the season, which runs from May to September. So due to the fact that these hurlers are replacing the 2008 panel who are on strike and none of them has played before this year, profiles of Cork hurlers you'll find there are people like Seán Óg Ó hAilpín who played last year but are now on strike - and Adrian Mannix et al won't be included till May. However, I think there are now enough sources on for example Ray Ryan (hurler) to establish notability. Tameamseo (talk) 01:02, 3 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - These don't appear to be notable athletes. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 11:49, 28 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Notability not established. --Revolución hablar ver 14:22, 28 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete alll. No evidence of notability. Doctorfluffy (robe and wizard hat) 05:42, 2 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. I might add that none of the pages seems to have been edited since I listed it above, and that as far as I remember the sole claim that was referenced in any of them when I drew up this AfD was that some relative(s) of one of the players had also been a hurler. Morenoodles (talk) 08:20, 2 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Very Strong Keep A quick Google search has just enabled me to add numerous references to Joe Moran. I'll add to the others when I have time. Like Colin Meads, Peter Canavan or Christy Ring, there are references demonstrating their notability, and they have played at the highest level of their sport (with the Cork inter-county team) as per WP:ATHLETE. Tameamseo (talk) 13:12, 2 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Playing at the top level and currently in the middle of a bitter strike. Gnevin (talk) 13:14, 2 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. All of these references are pure WP:LARD that barely mention Moran, and result in article sentences such as "He did not start for Cork in their loss to Dublin but was drafted in at right half-back against Tipperary." It is impossible to believe that the ARS doesn't have anything better to do. Might I suggest filling in red-links at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Law/United_States_federal_judges? THF (talk) 13:16, 2 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

ARS ? Gnevin (talk) 14:31, 2 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Article rescue squadron. THF (talk) 14:39, 2 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hardly ARS is it now. Why do users expect a 10,000 word article. 30 interviews ,a sponsorship deal and a book as reference on players who have just started playing at the highest level ? Gnevin (talk) 14:43, 2 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hardly? Somebody used the {{rescue}} tag. We don't require "30 interviews," but we do require "significant independent coverage" in a biography, which doesn't exist here. THF (talk) 14:51, 2 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

How many reference do you want for player who's played 3 games ? Gnevin (talk) 14:57, 2 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Isn't that response essentially acknowledging that a player who has played three amateur games of a sport at the local level isn't notable? THF (talk) 15:08, 2 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No it's asking how many reference you would like for a player who is playing the second most popular sport in Ireland in the most important league of that sport, a sport which will draw 80,000 people to All-Ireland final but a player who only play 3 games at the highest level. Don't let the word amateur fool you. Hurling is amateur in name only Gnevin (talk) 15:26, 2 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Weak Keep as per WP:ATHLETE cos played at the top level for his sport, but I see the point about the criteria for notability being stretched. I decided to Keep because inter-county GAA players, although amateur, are notable at a national level (and sometimes at an international level) and citations exist at this level. --HighKing (talk) 17:12, 2 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete All Non-notable, no reliable sources that are individualized to any of these players, they do not meet WP:ATHLETE exception. If there are some individual profiles of some of the stars, then they might make the cut. See athletes like Colt McCoy or Brian Orakpo, who, just for being a college football player, which has an enormous following, are not considered notable under WP:ATHLETE, but their individual coverage met general WP:N notability requirements.--2008Olympian^chitchat 17:51, 2 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I don't see the basis for saying that there must be 'individual profiles' of a player and "sources that are individualized to" him before be can be considered notable. "Significant coverage" is all that is required by WP:N. It should be more than trivial but it is NOT the case that it has to be exclusive and individualized solely to the person. Tameamseo (talk) 19:24, 2 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  - Sure, I agree, but it needs to be significant coverage of the subject of the article, not significant coverage of the sport or event to meet WP:N.--2008Olympian^chitchat 05:55, 3 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    - OK, so you agree there doesn't have to be a profile of each player? Would you agree that the sources now added on for example Ray Ryan (hurler) are sufficient to demonstrate notability? Tameamseo

(talk) 08:22, 3 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

- - - - I agree that there should be sufficient sources about the player himself.--2008Olympian^chitchat 22:53, 3 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        Sorry, but do you mind answering specifically the two actual questions I posed? I'll copy them here; "OK, so you agree there doesn't have to be a profile of each player? Would you agree that the sources now added on for example Ray Ryan (hurler) are sufficient to demonstrate notability? " Thanks. Tameamseo (talk) 23:12, 3 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - Adrian Mannix Indpendent reliable sources now added for this article. Tameamseo (talk) 19:39, 2 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - Ray Ryan Multiple independent reilable sources added to Ray Ryan (hurler), including full article about him in the Sunday Tribune national newspaper. Notability should be obvious. Tameamseo (talk) 20:46, 2 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

More now added, including another national one devoted to his comments, from the Irish Independent this time. Tameamseo (talk) 00:29, 3 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep I understand the arguments being made for "delete", but it appears the article has been improved somewhat; that the sport, while odd to me as a Yank, seems to be quite popular; and since it's in encyclopediac form (ie, not being used as a vanity site), I would suggest it's no different than other articles on sports or sports statistics. Ks64q2 (talk) 04:41, 3 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment This is not an AFD debate for the sport itself, but rather a player. --Sc straker (talk) 22:28, 3 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep These are notable athletes playing at the very top level of their sport. The sport itself gets widespread coverage in Ireland along with coverage in UK, USA and Australia. The present definition of notability for amateur athletes states "competed at the highest amateur level of a sport". All of these players have competed at "Inter-county" level which is the highest level you can compete at in Hurling. Surely this means all of these players are notable therefore under amateur notability ?ManfromDelmonte (talk) 21:23, 3 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

If you look at the entire guideline on amateur sports, it says that the "highest level" means "the Olympics or World Championships." All other amateur athletes need to meet general notability guidelines.--2008Olympian^chitchat 22:51, 3 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No is says People who have competed at the highest amateur level of a sport, usually considered to mean the Olympic Games or World Championships. For usally read normally but not always Gnevin (talk) 23:04, 3 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

2008 Olympian, you are misquoting the critereon. Its says "usually considering to mean Olympic Games or World Championships" as GNevin has pointed out. Your reasoning is based on a misreading of the notability cirtereon. ManfromDelmonte (talk) 23:19, 3 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per nom. --Sc straker (talk) 22:26, 3 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment This whole AFD seems to have been based on the misreading of a wikipedia notability criteron. The critereon states that amateur players who have played at the highest level of their sport are notable. These players have all played at inter-county level (the very highest level in hurling world-wide) and therefore fullfil this criteron to the letter of the law. A number of delete comments are on the basis that they have not played at the Olympics which isn't what the notability critereon states is a "be all and end all". ManfromDelmonte (talk) 23:28, 3 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. I think it's a great pity that the nominator appears to have misunderstood how WP:ATHLETE relates to Gaelic games. The article Gaelic Athletic Association says in its first line that it is an amateur sports association, and a little more reading would have revealed that inter-county competitions are the highest level of competition in GAA sports. A little further reading would have led the nominator to understand that these amateur sports have a massive following in Ireland, something which will be unfamiliar to those from countries such as the USA or the UK where the most popular sports are played by highly-paid professional teams. I think that the time is long overdue for a revision of WP:ATHLETE so that it displays less systemic bias towards the sporting structures of some larger countries. However, that doesn't mean that I will !vote to keep all these articles. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 03:31, 4 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Split vote:
- Keep Joe Moran, Ray Ryan (hurler), Tadhg Óg Murphy, Adrian Mannix: all these articles have references to demonstrate that they meet the criteria in WP:ATHLETE
- Delete ~~Barry Johnson (hurler)~~, ~~Aidan Ryan (hurler),~~ ~~Darren Crowley~~, ~~Ger O'Driscoll, Cian McCarthy, Chris Murphy (hurler), Alan Kennedy (hurler) and Craig Leahy~~. These articles are wholly unreferenced, so their claims to notability are not supported by any reference, and wikipedia has no business publishing wholly unreferenced biographies of living people (see WP:BLP). No prejudice to recreating these articles at a future date if they are referenced to establish notability. As Jimmy Wales wrote, "There seems to be a terrible bias among some editors that some sort of random speculative 'I heard it somewhere' pseudo information is to be tagged with a 'needs a cite' tag. Wrong. It should be removed, aggressively, unless it can be sourced."" It's time to stop pussyfooting around this one and simply delete BLP articles which mock wikipedia's core policies by failing to even provide a reference for the subject's existence, let alone evidence to support the assertion of notability. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 03:31, 4 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  Note: I have struck out my "delete" !votes for the articles which are now referenced. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 20:09, 4 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  ... and now that the remaining two are referenced, I have struck them all. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 21:48, 4 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  - Comment So all unreferenced articles on wikipedia should be AfDed ? ManfromDelmonte (talk) 07:59, 4 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    - I believe that BHG is talking about unreferenced articles about living people. Morenoodles (talk) 08:12, 4 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      - Morenoodles is correct. We have a policy of removing unref material from BLP articles, and in cases where the article is wholly unreferenced the only way to remove it is to delete the article. I think that summary deletion should be reserved for extreme cases (poss hoax etc), but none of this should be any surprise to even a new editor. The edit box when starting a new article is clearly preceded by the following warning:

When creating an article, provide references to reliable published sources. An article without references will likely be deleted quickly.

That warning is there on your first new article and on your thousandth and on your hundred-thousandth. When there's such a clear warning, why do some editors appear surprised when this actually happens? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:30, 4 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

- - On notability: You cite WP:ATHLETE. This is actually one section within Wikipedia:Notability (people). Near the top of the latter, we read: Basic criteria / A person is presumed to be notable if he or she has been the subject of published secondary source material which is reliable, intellectually independent, and independent of the subject. / If the depth of coverage is not substantial, then multiple independent sources may be needed to prove notability; trivial coverage of a subject by secondary sources may not be sufficient to establish notability. [...] For Ryan, the secondary material has some volume and depth, and that's why (in the comment close below) I retract my nomination for the deletion of the article on him. However, as far as I have seen, Joe Moran, Tadhg Óg Murphy, and Adrian Mannix are mentioned only fleetingly. For example, several of the sources given to show that this or that player played in this or that match are actually articles that say who's expected to play, and that even in this context merely mention the name of the player (rather than, say, explaining why he's likely to play). Ryan aside, I'd call the sum of all this "trivial coverage". (And as you say, eight other players could be entirely fictional for all we know.) Morenoodles (talk) 10:01, 4 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    - On notability reply Your whole argument stand or falls on if playing at the top of you chosen sport is worthy of note. Is it? Not mention these player are playing during a strike.Gnevin (talk) 10:46, 4 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    - Morenoodles, please take a moment or two more to read Wikipedia:Notability (people) a little more carefully. You quite accurately cite the basic criteria, but WP:ATHLETE is part of the WP:BIO#Additional_criteria, which begins "A person is generally notable if they meet any of the following standards.". --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:35, 4 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Emendation. It was me who made this nomination. I'm impressed by the article on Ray Ryan (hurler) as this now stands, and would like to retract my suggestion that it should be deleted. Morenoodles (talk) 08:27, 4 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. I will give them the benefit of the doubt. I will be the first to admit that I know very little about the sport. Assuming that Gnevin is correct and Hurling can draw 80,000 people to a match, hurling is not just a recreational sport. The sport is just regionalized. So is sumo wrestling, American college football, darts and even cricket. Also, WP:ATHLETE does not say amateur athletes have to participate in the Olympics. 09er (talk) 15:31, 4 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Every player now has at least 2 references from the national media. Gnevin (talk) 18:00, 4 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Reply. Not quite: Barry Johnson (hurler) and Darren Crowley are still unreferenced. I'll strike out my delete !votes for the others, but those two articles still don't make the grade. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 20:04, 4 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  - Sigh! Got them now Gnevin (talk) 21:34, 4 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    - Great. I have now struck out the last names from my !vote to delete. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 21:48, 4 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Very strong keep for all These are notable athletes playing at the highest highest level of their sport (Ireland's second most popular). They are most certainly notable at a national level. I think WP:ATHLETE should be revised so that similar, unnecessary nomiations don't arise in the future. Derry Boi (talk) 10:08, 5 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.