Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jimmy O

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Keep It would be easy to look at this through purely sympathetic eyes at a time like this and just give this article a pass because of the recent tragedy in Haiti, so I want to assure all of you that I have tried my upmost to look at this objectively. The argument that "he's only famous because he's dead" has an obvious logical flaw in it, in that 20,000 or more people died in a matter of moments, no one death in and of itself is more notable than any other, unless the person who dies was already notable. Why would anyone bother reporting on this particular mans death when the streets are literally piled with rotting corpses unless there was something special about him? The argument that "someone in Haiti would have done it by now" also has some rather large flaws. One, most Haitians do not speak English as their first language, so they are less likely to be contributing here in the first place. Secondly, I could see not knowing before the earthquake that Haiti is a wretchedly poor nation where millions of people struggle to get food every day, but in the time since the quake I think I must have heard the term "poorest country in the Western hemisphere" about 500 times. Most Haitians don't have a computer at all, much less high speed internet access. Lastly, from a pure WP policy standpoint, there do seem to be adequate sources from both before and after his death to establish his notability, and I would bet that there are significantly more sources in French or Creole that could be used to beef up this article, although as I said, Haiti wasn't too "plugged in" even before. Beeblebrox (talk) 07:33, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Jimmy O

Jimmy O (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log • AfD statistics)

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Not notable per WP guidelines Erroneuz1 (talk) 19:14, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

• Very weak keep - Wikipedia is not a memorial, but almost all of the post-death sources say he was well-known in Haiti. --Evb-wiki (talk) 20:41, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
  • If I could just find one single source to corroborate that claim (prior to the death) I'd be inclined to change my !vote. JBsupreme (talk) 21:26, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
    • It's certainly not easy, but he's mentioned in passing here in March 2006 and here in December 2007. --Evb-wiki (talk) 22:31, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
• Keep - In my decision I have to take into account what the Haitians have to say about this Jimmy O. In the sources I've seen, they state that he is well known in Haiti, and that's what I think is the decisive factor here. He was not well known in the US and Erroneuz1 mentions on the article's talk page that Jimmy O "hasn't even released an album." It's true that he hasn't released anything in the U.S., but I have no idea what the music culture is like in Haiti and the sources state that he is well known there. Erroneuz also mentions that "This guy didn't even have an article until he died in this earthquake." Well, obituaries are often the best sources of information concerning a persons life and people of notability overseas are often not reported about in the English langauge press until they die in a tragic event, such as happened last week. David Straub (talk) 20:52, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
• Delete. Not only is Wikipedia not a memorial, this guy never managed to achieve notability through life or death. JBsupreme (talk) 21:19, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
• Delete. per JBsupreme and Evb-wiki Wikipedia is not a memorial Venustas 12 (talk) 21:53, 19 January 2010 (UTC).
• Keep He was a well known bloke in his home country. 96.245.119.19 (talk) 22:11, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
• Keep- That CNN actually wrote about his death indicates to me at least that he had some kind of notability while alive. Umbralcorax (talk) 23:06, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
• Weak Keep - as mentioned by Umbralcorax above, being covered in a fair amount of detail by CNN indicates some reason to find the rapper notable. My vote is "weak" because I'm unsure if his notability is truly independent of the notable event in which he died. DOOMSDAYER520 (Talk|Contribs) 00:07, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
• Keep - systemic bias here against non-US/Western artists?  Francium12  00:30, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
  • No, if anything this appears to be a reverse bias as a result of this persons unfortunate death. I see no indicator that the artist was actually notable. Where is the coverage, in any language, of this musician prior to the earthquake? I wonder... JBsupreme (talk) 21:11, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
    • Odd the mass media are reporting this non-notable person's death... Francium12  06:23, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Caribbean-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 00:59, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 00:59, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
• Keep -Reliable sources indicate clear notability as a musician in Haiti. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dr. Blofeld (talk • contribs)

I need someone to explain what makes him notable in Haiti...he's never released an album and was not even listed on this site until he died. If he was such a huge notable musician, wouldn't an article have been created way before the earthquake? I'm failing to see anything notable about his career as a musician whatsoever. -- Erroneuz1 (talk) 03:22, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

• EXACTLY. JBsupreme (talk) 04:11, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

When an article got created is irrelevant to the process of determining their notability — people from smaller and non-English-speaking countries are especially likely to not have articles on here until a US or UK newspaper reports on their death, simply because most Wikipedia editors aren't familiar with the topic. Bearcat (talk) 23:01, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

If he's such a huge national figure, someone in Haiti with internet access would have created it already. He's a big celebrity superstar apparently. The article would have been here if this was true. -- Erroneuz1 (talk) 03:48, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Erroneuz1, your arguement is getting pretty old. Many wiki articles are written after someone dies. The Laura Chapman Hruska and Edward H. Linde articles were just created this week, shortly after appearring in the New York Times obituary section!!! David Straub (talk) 04:35, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

It's an argument no one can seem to refute Dave. There's a difference between being ranked in Forbes and having no album. -- Erroneuz1 (talk) 23:45, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

• Delete. One of those cases where an non-notable (by our standards) person gets pumped up only because of their death in a prominent event by the media looking to find "notable" casualties to keep the news cycle flowing. In my view, this guy is not notable for his career - if he was there would have been sources while he was alive. He never released an album so it doesn't appear he ever met WP:MUSIC. The sources only seem to indicate he was "well-respected in the local rap scene". Well-respected does not mean notable. He's therefore notable only for his death and thus does not warrant an article per WP:BIO1E. If any sources can be presented to show that he was notable for anything other than his death, happy to reconsider. --Mkativerata (talk) 21:08, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Source of Notability: - A 2006 Christian Science Monitor article has the following "Jean recently emceed a hip-hop contest in the Bel Air slum as part of the USAID-funded Clean Streets project. From 50 contestants in three different slums, Haitian rap star "Jimmy O" Alexandre and Jean selected four from each neighborhood to perform in Bel Air." All this talk about him not having an album in the US is irrelevant. He was obviously well known in Haiti, which is why he has an article. And by the way Erroneuz1, if you want to address me by my first name, why don't you provide your real name and some contact info on your user page and stop talking trash behind a wiki-moniker. Or are you a bit too afraid some Haitians might track you down and give you a lesson in Port-au-Prince style street violence. David Straub (talk) 02:06, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

I'm addressing you by your chosen username if that also happens to be your real name, I have no idea. I wasn't talking album in the US, I was talking album in any country, of which he has none. I'm failing to see what exactly he accomplished that makes him a star and thus article worthy. So he knew Wyclef, that gets him an article? -- Erroneuz1 (talk) 21:26, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Comment: Implied threats of violence are over the line. Please strike those comments and stay WP:CIVIL. — Gwalla | Talk 23:00, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

• Delete. I don't see where he passed WP:MUSICBIO. Oddly, nobody felt the need to do an article on this "famous" guy until he was dead. Niteshift36 (talk) 08:16, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
• Keep. Article includes plenty of sources in which he is profiled, thus meeting the WP:GNG standard.--PinkBull 00:21, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
• Reluctant delete - He doesn't meet WP:MUSICBIO , if it can be verified that he does, please do. A Ghit search is complicated by another Jimmy O, a US musician and the ones concerning the late Haitian musician seem to deal only with his tragic death.—Sandahl (♀) 03:17, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
  • If the "US musician" plays around NYC, it may be the same person. Sources say he lived there. I've seen several club dates listed. --Evb-wiki (talk) 03:21, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

There are more than one [1], [2].—Sandahl (♀) 03:36, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, I don't think either one of those are the subject of this article, huh? --Evb-wiki (talk) 03:44, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Again, we are losing geographical focus here. Jimmy O was a Haitian rapper who was well known in Haiti, but he also worked in the US, where he was not well known. CNN mentions that "Jimmy O, a well-known singer and songwriter in Haiti who also was active in hip-hop artist and philanthropist Wyclef Jean's charity, is dead." He sang his songs in Creole, not English (see video). It should not be surprising that he is not well known in the US, but that is not what's important. David Straub (talk) 04:03, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

• Keep per the sufficient coverage in reliable sources. CNN describes him as a "a well-known singer and songwriter in Haiti". The reason that few English newspapers have covered him is systemic bias. Cunard (talk) 06:28, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
  • Its only systemic bias if there is a reasonable amount of coverage from non-English newspapers prior to his death. Is there? If so, where is it? This is likely going to be closed as "keep" and if so I will be challenging it again later on down the road if said coverage cannot be found. JBsupreme (talk) 06:39, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
    • In cases such as this, I err on the side of caution. If as CNN said, Jimmy O was well-known in Haiti, Haiti newspapers have likely written articles about him. Because these newspapers don't keep long-term online archives of all their articles, searches for sources prior to his death return no results. The only reason I am voting "keep" is due the assertion made by the CNN article. Otherwise, I would agree with deletion. Cunard (talk) 06:53, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.