Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jim Fung

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. MBisanz talk 12:30, 9 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Jim Fung[edit]

AfDs for this article:
Jim Fung (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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No available sources except 2 obituaries in and one short article in Blitz Australianblackbelt (talk) 00:18, 23 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Martial arts-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 01:53, 23 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Hong Kong-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (✉) 05:34, 23 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per the significant coverage in multiple independent reliable sources.
    1. Stephens, Tony (2007-04-01). "Businessman and martial artist packed a punch". The Sydney Morning Herald. Archived from the original on 2017-04-23. Retrieved 2017-04-23.

      The article notes:

      Fung, who has died at 62, became one of the best known martial artists in the world and a leading figure in Australia's Chinese business community. His academy has 20 branches in three states, with eight franchises overseas.

      Fung Chuen Keung was born in Hong Kong to Fung Siu Keung, a businessman, and his wife, Pong Yuk Ying. A good pianist at school, he considered a professional career but after being bullied in the playground he trained in kung-fu, at the same school as the actor Bruce Lee.

      Fung's first martial art was tai chi but he changed to wing chun after witnessing a fight in which a classmate easily overpowered a bully. He trained under Great Grandmaster Tsui Seung Tin, a disciple of Yip Man, who took wing chun to Hong Kong during the Cultural Revolution.

    2. "Martial arts leader leaves living legacy". The Advertiser. 2007-03-31. Archived from the original on 2017-04-23. Retrieved 2017-04-23.

      The article notes:

      Jim Fung

      Martial arts grandmaster

      Born: May 16, 1944; Hong Kong

      Died: March 18, 2007; Sydney

      GRANDMASTER Jim Fung was among the world's best-known martial artists and a leading figure in Australia's Chinese business community. Grandmaster Fung, whose International Wing Chun Academy grew from a backyard shed in Adelaide to Australia's biggest martial art school, fought cancer for three years.

      Grandmaster Fung came to Australia in 1959 as a secondary school student, having trained in Wing Chun kung fu under Great Grandmaster Tsui Seung Tin in Hong Kong. Master Tsui, a disciple of the legendary Yip Man who took Wing Chun to Hong Kong during the Chinese Cultural Revolution, is the world's leading exponent of the art. Grandmaster Fung, who trained with him for more than 47 years, was his number one student.

      Grandmaster Fung majored in law and accountancy at Adelaide University and established his academy here in 1973.

      ...

      As word spread about his skills, Grandmaster Fung became the subject of countless media articles, television and radio programs. He wrote Wing Chun (published in 1981) and The Authentic Wing Chun Weapons (1984), and produced a teaching video, Wing Chun, in 1985.

    3. Hallander, Jane (December 1983). "What Is Chi Sao?". Black Belt. Retrieved 2017-04-23.

      The article notes:

      A strong believer of chi sao training instructor Jim Fung of Adelaide, Australia. Fung started his wing chun training with the legendary Yip Man, Bruce Lee's original wing chun instructor. After Yip's death, Fung became a student of Tsui Seung Tin, one of Yip Man's instructors.

      Fung started teaching the art more than nine years ago in Australia. He now has three large schools there. His techniques are practical enough that he has instructed Australian police officers in the different facets of self-defense.

    4. "The mind - can beat muscles". Gold Coast Sun. 2005-01-27. Archived from the original on 2017-04-23. Retrieved 2017-04-23.

      The article notes:

      The International Wing Chun Academy, in Surfers Paradise and Palm Beach, is founded by Grandmaster Jim Fung who has been training and teaching Wing Chun Kung Fu for more than 40 years and can trace direct lineage back to the founder of the system eight generations ago.

      Master Jim Fung's schools claim to be the first in martial arts with Austudy-approved tertiary courses.

      His school also is the only one in Australia recognised by the Chinese Martial Arts Council in its 1998 register.

    5. Khalil, Shireen (2010-08-12). "Son fights in father's footsteps". Inner West Courier. Archived from the original on 2017-04-23. Retrieved 2017-04-23.

      The article notes:

      TRISTAN Fung used to sit in silence as a six-year-old watching his father Jim Fung train in a martial art that made him a household name.

      He is the son of a Wing Chun grandmaster whose passion led him to write Kung Fu history in Australia.

      ...

      The 24-year-old is now a senior instructor at his father's International Wing Chun Academy.

      Fung senior trained at the legendary Yip Man school in Hong Kong, the same training centre where influential martial artist Bruce Lee developed his skill.

      The reason he started is similar to a Karate Kid story: there was a bully involved. Fung's friend took down the bully instantly using Wing Chun, which then prompted Fung to learn self-defence.

      Fung, known for the one-inch punch, was trained by grandmaster Chu Shong Tin, Yip Man's third most senior instructor.

      But it wasn't until 1972 when Chinese martial arts gained popularity, mainly through Bruce Lee films, that Fung decided to open a permanent Wing Chun school in Australia. He died in 2007 from a rare head and neck cancer.

    There is sufficient coverage in reliable sources to allow Jim Fung to pass Wikipedia:Notability#General notability guideline, which requires "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject".

    Cunard (talk) 06:06, 23 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment Cunard, you wrote above "Fung became the subject of countless media articles", and you listed some examples. So how about you cite some of them in the article? At present the article has only one citation, to the Sydney Morning Herald, that helps to establish notability. Maproom (talk) 16:21, 24 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 01:48, 25 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Cunard, That's exactly what I was thinking! LoL I spend ages looking for sources and found nothing... Cunard unless you add the sources and anymore the article should be deleted. Bare in mind Fung has never been a part of the Ving Tsun Athletic Association, you can check the site and see, not just promotional and kinda fraudulent. This is beside the point but nice to know anyway.(Australianblackbelt (talk) 07:09, 25 April 2017 (UTC))[reply]
Yes, you've added them to the reference list. It would be better if you could actually cite them in the article. Maproom (talk) 07:08, 26 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Cunard consider this before you keep working on the article... The new sources: Inner West Courier, Gold Coast Sun, and The Advertiser are local newspapers not national or state hence they are not enough to establish notability if local papers such as these were acceptable I my self would have written a dozen new articles on people. The 1983 "What Is Chi Sao?". Black Belt magazine article would more than likely be written by or co-written by Jim Fung as Chi Sao is his area of expertise, the name of the article asks the question and Jim Fung answers it. I have had many problems with co-written articles in martial arts magazine they are not accepted. I suggest finding national sources first before trying to redo the article to save time(Australianblackbelt (talk) 14:29, 26 April 2017 (UTC))[reply]
Maproom Sorry about the "Delete" nom... The SMH article you said is acceptable is a paid obituary http://www.smh.com.au/comment/obituaries/death-notices-archives-and-reproductions-20120313-1uxqc.html?rand=1331611782716 It also states "His first book is sold internationally and remains the official handbook of the Ving Tsun Athletic Association in Hong Kong". This shows the article is paid and not researched as a proper journalist would do for a news story. See the Ving Tsun Athletic Association website... Jim Fung has never been a member let alone a permanent director http://www.vingtsun.org.hk/ (Australianblackbelt (talk) 15:02, 26 April 2017 (UTC))[reply]
  • Quotes from the two obituaries:

    The Sydney Morning Herald obituary said, "Fung, who has died at 62, became one of the best known martial artists in the world and a leading figure in Australia's Chinese business community."

    The Advertiser obituary said, "As word spread about his skills, Grandmaster Fung became the subject of countless media articles, television and radio programs." This strongly establishes that he passes Wikipedia:Notability#General notability guideline.

    Cunard (talk) 03:50, 27 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

One obituary in the SMH is not strongly establishing notability... as far as it's content that's not so relevant seeing as it mentions Fung's role in Ving Tsun Athletic Association is completely false.. again as I said check the website yourself http://www.vingtsun.org.hk/ it is obvious Fung has never been a part of it. Wikipedia editors are supposed to do research ourselves, I for one have integrity in everything I do on here, do you?Cunard I appreciate your attempts to save this article.(Australianblackbelt (talk) 04:50, 27 April 2017 (UTC))[reply]
The 2007 obituary says, "Fung wrote two books, Wing Chun (1981) and The Authentic Wing Chun Weapons (1984), and produced a teaching video in 1985. His first book is sold internationally and remains the official handbook of the Ving Tsun Athletic Association in Hong Kong."

The source does not say that he is a part of Ving Tsun Athletic Association. The link to the organization's website does not demonstrate whether Fung's book was the association's official handbook in 2007.

Wikipedia editors are supposed to do research ourselves, I for one have integrity in everything I do on here, do you? – I do not do original research in articles per Wikipedia:No original research. I go by what the reliable sources say. I trust the integrity of sources like The Sydney Morning Herald. If you believe The Sydney Morning Herald is wrong, you can ask them to publish a correction.

Cunard (talk) 05:19, 27 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Its not what I believe its what is obvious, The official hand book is in English? when the organisation is Chinese the founder Ip Chun can't even speak english.... look at the article it self it says; Fung is also a permanent director of the Hong Kong Ving Tsun Athletic Association... Look on Fungs own website here https://www.wingchun.edu.au/future-students/why-choose-us This is what you choose to believe, I see the facts.... I don't know why you don't see my point are you affiliated to the club or the subject?
You're going to need to delete most of the content of the article based on what sources you have cause they dont cover whats written.(Australianblackbelt (talk) 07:20, 27 April 2017 (UTC))[reply]
Although that one article is still not enough for notability regardless of who the journalist is.(Australianblackbelt (talk) 07:32, 27 April 2017 (UTC))[reply]
I don't know why you don't see my point are you affiliated to the club or the subject? – I am not affiliated with the club or the subject.

I am following the Wikipedia policies Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Verifiability.

From Wikipedia:Verifiability:

Wikipedia does not publish original research. Its content is determined by published information rather than the beliefs or experiences of its editors. Even if you're sure something is true, it must be verifiable before you can add it.

As I wrote above, "If you believe The Sydney Morning Herald is wrong, you can ask them to publish a correction."

With regard to your arguments against the official handbook, a possible explanation is that the book was translated from English into Chinese or that members of the group who understood English advocated for and succeeded in making the book the group's official handbook. There is no proof that The Sydney Morning Herald is wrong.

Cunard (talk) 05:24, 28 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Official handbook, permanent director and pigs fly too mate lmfao(Australianblackbelt (talk) 18:25, 29 April 2017 (UTC))[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America1000 09:58, 30 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep no valid argument put forward for deletion. Furthermore, the first three of Cunard's sources - two news obits and a short passage in an American martial arts magazine - above show that he meets WP:GNG. The latter two, as local press releases, not so much. Secondary points -
  • GNG requires the existence of sources, i.e. it doesn't need to be in the article for it to show that the subject meets the guideline. That they are provided here (with frankly excessive quotations) should render that point moot. If you have an issue with the number of references here and the lack of references in the article, feel free to add them yourself.
  • Obituaries can on occasion contain errors and typos. That doesn't necessarily mean that the source is completely unreliable and unusable. While I wouldn't use that source to verify that particular point, I would not mind using it as a source to show that a subject is notable or to verify less contentious facts about his life. His former academy states that his book was used as "official training manual of the Hong Kong Wing Chun Association", which is a different organisation altogether. Fuebaey (talk) 01:36, 1 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Then if this article is ok with just one acceptable source I have plenty of martial artists to write an article... (Australianblackbelt (talk) 05:32, 1 May 2017 (UTC))[reply]
The article is promotional and most of its content is not sourced, once the info that is not sourced is removed there will be very little remaining hence Cunard did not add the reference properly cause he can't then would need to delete most of it. (Australianblackbelt (talk) 16:45, 4 May 2017 (UTC))[reply]
Maproom the reason I think that Cunard didn't add the references properly to the article is because there is very little that cause be referred back to the sources.(Australianblackbelt (talk) 18:41, 6 May 2017 (UTC))[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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