Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jean-Pierre Danel (2nd nomination)

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Keep as this is SNOWing and a week has shown nothing else (NAC). SwisterTwister talk 05:42, 5 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Jean-Pierre Danel[edit]

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Jean-Pierre Danel (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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Hi all.

After a long discussion on FR, the community decided that the original article (which is copied here) and its sources were not close enough to the minimum that is demanded to write, and keep, an article of a decent level in terms of fact-checking. Over the years and despite what is, obviously, a successful carreer as a producer, Danel's communication team has "killed" his e-reputation by promoting him in such an exagerated way that it's now almost impossible to determine what can be trustworthy and what's not. We've asked for serious, independant secondary sources for years and still, all we got is short video extracts with no context whatsoever, pure numbers on charts, interviews and many short articles that are too close to a promotional work to be used. Despite his long carreer, no-one has seen fit to write any kind of serious article in the French or international musical press. I'm not stating here that Danel does not deserve recognition as a great producer; but most of them, despite their commercial successes, remain in the shadow of their artists. So let's say that yes, Danel is one of the big producers in France. He does not, though, produce mainstream artists that could be known enough to bring him some form of notoriety in return. He wrote a truckload of books but none of them was published by a major publisher, nor criticized in a major magazine, and the same applies to his carreer as a guitarist. Without wanting to be rude, he's not considered as a guitar hero, but rather just as a rich collector of fine guitars, who plays them well enough, just like thousands of other guitarists.

I must also say that, while checking sources around Danel (it started 6 years ago and nothing's changed for the best), several contributors and myself found out that the numbers given for album sales often varied from source to source, that sometimes, a foreign chart was renamed in order to make it appear as a national or international chart, etc.: globally, it was, and still is, very difficult to find any reliable source, for any album, any piece of work in general or any biographic element. To this day, in most cases, it's hard to be affirmative about whether a source is directly from Danel's team or from a serious, neutral journalist or music professional, because of the total lack of reference to Danel's name in clearly notorious mainstream music media.

As a conclusion, Danel does many things, with many more or less famous people. As a result, he managed to become more or less famous himself as a Parisian "jet-setter", but we can safely assume that it's more a less, as he's still totally unknown from the public, mainstream media, etc. Out of a very limited network of music and show business professionals, the name Danel rings a bell to almost no-one in France, where he is supposed to be the most well-known.

This article's equivalent on FR was, in the end, considered as a "cas d'école" (typical example) of what autopromotion can lead to, in terms of misuse of the internet tool, twisting sources, etc. Over more than six years, the result is that it became so hard to believe in anything related to Danel that the Fench-speaking community, out of precaution, prefered to simply delete an article about someone who, as a producer, certainly could have had an article, had he agreed to be considered as just this. Alchemica (talk) 15:28, 29 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. clpo13(talk) 15:32, 29 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of France-related deletion discussions. clpo13(talk) 15:32, 29 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Hello,

Pure lies !! See the links hereunder, above many others :

This discussion is ridiculous and is created to trouble JP Danel's image and credibility. JP Danel is the subject of a little haters war, on a French forum where someone made a appeal to saccage his wikipedia pages, all that based on false allegations (such a officially certified gold disc could be a false anyway (even presented by Sony's CEO), charts positions are not proofs, TV show appearences doesn't make someone an artist, etc.). The forum celebrated the deletion of the French JP Danel article as a victory. Now they want to spread this everywhere.

Only a record producer? Read the guitar press ! Hear Brian May's and Hank Marvin tributes on the video linked here under ! Check duets with Albert Lee and Scott Henderson ! Ridiculous... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.220.245.178 (talk) 16:12, 29 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

His records are not published by a major company ? Sony Music...??? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.220.245.178 (talk) 16:14, 29 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

His last album was at #7 in the charts last Marxh (as seen from the link on the us article) and is tv advertised as we speak (as all his albums it seems), see link.

He just received a platinum disc a few days ago : http://www.purepeople.com/article/pascal-danel-tres-fier-de-son-fils-jean-pierre-reunion-de-famille-en-platine_a186328/1

Biggest shops in France offer his albums and books : http://www.e-leclerc.com/espace+culturel/artiste/jean-pierre-danel/liste

Check him on iTunes, and you will see. There are tons of articles in the press, but not always available on the web. Then, on the web, there are also lots of things.

Here are some recent links I found :

A trailer with testimonies of various French and international stars + CEOS of Sony and Warner Music : http://www.dailymotion.com/jpdanel

A prime time tv show last march : http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x4c4i1k_jean-pierre-danel-michael-jones-medley-live-mars-2016_music

A show on national tv with a 6 minutes subject on his gold discs and guitar collection : http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x4c1exf_jean-pierre-danel-pascal-danel-interview-et-reportage-tv-mai-2016-guitar-tribute_music

The article includes a number of links, and there are many others available. This a disparagement campaign. Wikipedia should not let people play such a game. I followed what happened in France, and that was absolutly insane. Professionnal journalists were schoked on told it on Facebook. On wikipedia article about Danel, someone even wrote on the French page he was a porn movie composer and addict ! Pure diffamations. One shouldn't let such things be done on wikipedia. I think the page must be protected from vanndalims. Thanks a lot. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.220.245.178 (talk • contribs) 08:48, May 29, 2016‎

For your information

Jean-Pierre Danel has publicly called his friends on his Facebook page to come on Wikipedia to write against the procedure of deletion (on french side) So, can you semi-protect this page before all this become a big mess, please ? As you can already see, you'll see a lot of anonymous ip this page ! Thank you. Icezackazilov (talk) 16:11, 29 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Here we are again ! The same French little gang of jealous amateur guitarists. They want to finish the job. So, the opinion of a very, very few unknown people would be more reliable than well know professionnals. Just check the video. Most respected French guitar journalist Christian Seguret, talks about Danel playing with admiration, + very nice compliments by Brian May, Hank Marvin, well known French artists, etc. This is completly ridiculous. A few people decided to join and kill his image on the web. That's insane. Check the links. The platinum discs last week is for his last live guitar show, not as a producer. This is inbelievable. The guy was unhappy on his FB page ? I saw that - he had some reasons.--Kart (talk) 16:22, 29 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Again, I DIDN'T VOTE for the deletion of the french page. So your accusations are very serious. In addition, your contributions on Wikipedia relate almost exclusively pages about this artist. And although we had agreed together that sources from YouTube (or Dailymotion)from the artist's user account were not acceptable sources you keep discreetly adding them. You're not neutral. Icezackazilov (talk) 16:36, 29 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Not neutral ?! is it a joke ? a group of people called to kill this guy's image, as I read because he's supposed to be a wealthy guy, and they would be neutral ? They called on vandalism, and they succeed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kart (talk • contribs) 16:40, 29 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Ok. So give us some links please !Icezackazilov (talk) 16:44, 29 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Kart, you should go easy on name-calling. I've been an "administrateur" on French Wikipedia for ten years now: you're implying that I've moved the debate from FR (a debate in which I voted keep, FYI) to EN for the sole pleasure of ruining Danel's reputation. ("Because he's wealthy?" Come on, as if we had any interest in such childish, stupid things: we're not even paid for all the pain we have to endure with regular contributors...) The problem is that I don't give the slightest flying damn about him or his talent as a guitarist. I only care about being able to tell right from wrong, with sources that abide to Wikipedia's rules of solid fact-checking. Now our IP friend above replied to almost everything I said with : "lies", "dailymotion", "commercial link" and so on. WHERE ARE the tons of articles, signed by renown professionals, that a well-known artist, maybe the independant producer with the most gold/platinum/diamond disks and DVDs ever in France (allegedly, 195+ as of today), should logically be the subject of? How come a guy like him only gathers less than 1000 Facebook likes, while he's supposed to be superfamous, sponsored by May and Marvin? Because he's not. It's not envy (that's the proper term, not jealousy), it's a simple fact: he's far from being superfamous, far from being the subject of many quality sources because he's nothing more than a guy who does his job well, quite far from what interests the public. VERY far from what makes a solid article here on WP. According to himself, Danel doesn't really care about being on WP or not. Fine by me. On the contrary, I really believe that keeping articles such as this one, flawed with so many problems, biased sources and global lack of quality, is a problem for WP. It's quite obvious that Danel tries to drop his name as often as possible, which is not a bad thing anywhere else, since it's the business' rule. But here, we should not let people dictate their way of promoting their work to Wikipedia, otherwise we'll never be done with it. Alchemica (talk) 16:56, 29 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Let's remind what has been written in the conversation on the French site. Hundreds of links have been provided (Billboard, SENP, V shows, artciles, interviews, reviews, etc.). You refused them all. When it's paper press, you say it's not possible to check online (so the articles reproduced on the artist's web site are supposed to be fakes!). When it's online, it's not serious enough. When it's a major TV show with Danel as a guest as an artist, you say it just shows he's a jet-setter with some high profile relations but not an artist, when it's a link to a gold disc certification by French Producers Syndicate, you say it means nothing, when it's a TV documentary about his gold discs (as an artist and as a producer) you say it's not a proof, when it's a link to the charts, you say it's not a proof either, when it's a video with big names paying tribute to him, you say they've been paid for that, when it's a review, you say it can only be good because it's written by Danel himself or paid by him, when a gold disc presentation is not filmed, you say it's a proof it doesn't exist, and when it's filmed, you say it shows Danel is really a nobody, because if he was someone, he wouldn't need to have it filmed... Etc. Well, and I am supposed to be "not neutral" ? You refuse all the evidence. Last March he released an album. It's on itunes etc. In all the shops as well. It's done Sony Music. The dvd got a gold and then a platinum disc (links a presentations on video, articles, TV ad, etc.), it includes duets with French stars and international guests as well, the album is on the SNEP website ranked #7 in the charts (link here on this very article, please check), there's a TV advertising as we speak (saw it yesterday again), etc. And then, you and your friends say  : "all this doesn't show any professional activity. The guy is just simeone who would like to enter the show biz world and doesn't access to it..."" And you should be taken seriously ? --Stratospheric (talk) 17:22, 29 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Exact. There are some people who want him out, for some reasons. You could ad MTV link and so and so. Whatever...--Kart (talk) 17:24, 29 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Let me remind you that in the shows you mention, the first show (the Jacky's one) was broadcasted on a local channel (not a national) and on the other one (FR2) Jean-Pierre Danel was the guest of a guest... So that source was not focused on the subject of the article. Be honest, please.

False allegation : the TV doc is about JP Danel alone for 6 minutes, starting at 17'38 I guess. And the other TV show where he plays live, have you seen it? It's national. Prime time. Danel's album is shown by the host while he's playing live, in a duet with a famous singer. You try to diminish everything this guy does... --Kart (talk) 17:54, 29 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

For the rest of the Wikipedia US community, you must know that Stratospheric publicly admitted (on FR Wiki side) that he works for the artist's production company.Icezackazilov (talk) 17:32, 29 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Guys... Come on. It's not "people against JPD" versus "people for him". That's something of a bad fantasy. The "we" you're talking about does not even exist. "We" [people who voted for deletion. Oh wait, I didn't vote for deletion at first but I'm "one of them" anyway.]. "We" are not linked, part of a conspiration, speaking behind your backs, or anything like that. IT'S JUST THAT WE DON'T AGREE. (Yes, I shouted a bit.) You consider "us", people demanding solid sources, just like for any subject on Wikipedia, as some osbcure anti-Danel group and none of our arguments seems to suit you. Therefore, you keep on whining and giving us links that don't fit. (Or at least, did not fit on FR.) On the other side, "we", serious contributors, can't agree with your way of pushing forward and we keep on demanding correct sources instead. See? No conspiration. Provide enough quality sources to write a full, interesting biographic article and I promise I'd be the first to defend its existence. Now, when you say that "we" can't be taken seriously... Then tell me, why to you take us so seriously that you keep on wasting time here? Either you believe in Wikipedia, and in its contributors' sincerity: then, you should not worry about the article's future. Or, you don't trust Wikipedia: then, why insist on keeping articles about Danel here? Especially you, Stratospheric, since you work for JPD... You can't criticize a system on the one hand and, on the other hand, beg to remain a part of it. Make a choice, for God's sake... Alchemica (talk) 18:35, 29 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep; I won't read the above discussion. He appears to pass WP:MUSIC and WP:GNG. The article, however, needs extensive cleanup, no doubt about it. FoCuS contribs; talk to me! 17:37, 29 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep As with the immediate previous poster, I am totally disregarding the various discussions above. The ONLY relevant thing to consider is whether the subject passes the notability guidelines of the English Wikipedia, the guidelines or practices of other Wikipedias being irrelevant. I believe the subject clearly passes the notability guidelines found at WP:MUSICBIO and WP:GNG and thus the article should definitely be kept. However, I agree that the article needs major cleanup and needs to be purged of unreliable sources, such as Youtube, etc. Safiel (talk) 18:43, 29 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - I am philosophically opposed to WP:TNT. The subject meets notability standards. If there are problems with the article's sources, the solution is to remove the problematic sources, and any statements in the article that rely on them. If this brings the article down to a stub, fine, but if the subject is notable enough... and he is... then we should be able to find NON-problematic sources to expand it back out of the stub. Regardless... keep. Notable. Fieari (talk) 02:34, 30 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep, as it seems I was highly mistaken about the way things work here. I didn't know there were so many differences between the way we handled things on FR and the way people would rather see things done here, and I think that very interesting things were said above. I agree that the article should be reduced to what can be done with reliable sources and not erased. Sorry all for wasting your time, sincerely. Alchemica (talk) 12:35, 1 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep: only one album certified gold in France (not "191 gold and platinum discs" or maybe as a producer), but that is enough as per WP:MUSICBIO. Oliv0 (talk) 15:43, 1 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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