Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jarlaxle (3rd nomination)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was merge to Forgotten Realms#Characters. Consensus to not keep. Opinion is split between merge and redirect, but redirect makes less sense as long as there is no mention of this character at the target location, so I'm going with a (very selective) merge for now. Sandstein 12:29, 30 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Jarlaxle[edit]

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The coverage (references, external links, etc.) does not seem sufficient to justify this article passing Wikipedia:General notability guideline and the more detailed Wikipedia:Notability (fiction) requirement. WP:BEFORE did not reveal any significant coverage on Gnews, Gbooks or Gscholar (there are few passing mentions like [1] but no serious, in-depth analysis I can find). The article is 99% plot-summary fancruft. Reception is limited to a paragraph mention on a "Game Rant's 2020 "10 Must-Have NPCs In Dungeons & Dragons Lore To Make Your Campaigns Awesome" ". Previous AfD was keep even through half the votes were based on an "argument" stating that " Wikipedia consensus that the major characters in novels or novel series are inherently notable" - even through of course there was no such consensus back then and certainly there is none right now. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:32, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:32, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Science fiction and fantasy-related deletion discussions. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:32, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Keep or Merge to Forgotten Realms#Characters per WP:ATD and WP:PRESERVE. BOZ (talk) 13:16, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect to Forgotten Realms#Characters. Game Rant is an unreliable source per Wikiproject VG. Unable to find any secondary sources of substance in Google Books or Google Scholar so no WP:SIGCOV, but the character has played a very prolific role in dozens of Forgotten Realms-themed novels as well as appearances in other media, so per WP:ATD and WP:CCOS the character should have a paragraph's worth of an entry in the redirect target, starting with this source. Finally, the essay Wikipedia:Notability (fiction) is as much as of a global consensus as "Wikipedia consensus that the major characters in novels or novel series are inherently notable" is, which is...none. The only required guideline for consideration here is GNG. Haleth (talk) 13:31, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I have not formed an opinion yet myself, but wanted to point out that this PhD thesis, The Symbolical Functions of Space in Fantasy: Towards a Topography of the Genre (which is in English despite its French abstract and Google link title), has character analysis of Jarlaxle on pages 112-114. Daranios (talk) 14:51, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Daranios, Nice find, but as far as I can tell (pdf is not searchable?) the character is mentioned on p.112 and 114 (not 113) and there is hardly any analysis of them, it seems like just a plot summary. But if I missed something significant, I'd appreciate it if you could quote it. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 16:48, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  - @Piotrus: Jarlaxle is the first word on p. 113. I don't know the books, so in some places I can't tell for sure, but much sounds like analysis rather than plot summary to me: If The Dark Elf Trilogy was a game of chess, Jarlaxle would be the Knight - "limited in distances but its erratic movements alÏow this piece to go over obstacles and...to change direction." Is that in the book and can therefore be plot summary? "Jarlaxle ...changes camp at will, depending on his interests". Maybe plot summary - but wouldn't I be accused of WP:OR if I presented this as summary without a secondary source? Jarlaxle is not associated with a House but the open streets, an "indication of his freedom of movement". Characteristic of him are his "subtle manoeuvers". He is associated with Dinin, together these are the counterpart of Drizzt and Zaknafein. Jarlaxle stands against the system of Menzoberranzan. In the end he decides not to follow Drizzt (against his orders, I assume) - plot summary - because he is aware that that is ultimately in Menzoberranzan's better interest, that he is aware that Drizzt has an important role for Menzoberranzan to play (against the current status of power) - is that plot summary? That's what I see in there. Daranios (talk) 20:33, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    - Daranios, When I was determining the notability of Star Wars' Old Republic which I AfD (and then withdrew the nom as I concluded I made a mistake) at first I saw just plot summary, then I noticed the sources actually do a comparative comparison of the plot summary to real-world republics (Roman, German) and do so at length. And recently we discussed Wulfgar, where in the end good sources were also found, like a comparison of him to Conan (IIRC). In the case of the thesis cited here, I don't see anything that goes beyond a plot summary - no analysis invoking some social science concepts, no meaningful comparison to notable entities, at least, nothing that goes beyond a sentence. He is mentioned in that text few times, but it seems to me to be a passing mention only (once or twice on two or three pages each). Here's a test: if we deleted each reference to him, would the source text (chapter, even) be affected? In the case of the Republic of Wulfgar sources, I think they'd be. In the case of the source here - not at all. Which is why I conclude that this source is not 'in-depth' even if we stretch the definition (and despite what some people think, I am happy to stretch it in favor of saving a topic to even as little as 'a dedicated paragraph'). Here I think we don't even have a dedicated sentence (that's not a plot summary). Anyway, I hope my explanation above is of help to you. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:39, 23 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      - Comments: Going by your comments in the discussion, you withdrew because the emergent consensus was unanimously against your AfD proposal, and with all honesty you were quite petulant about it. Since AFD stands for Articles for Deletion, you shouldn't go to AFD unless your goal is to call for a motion to delete the article's page because you are certain that its issues are insurmountable and unsalvageable, since there is always a possibility that the article will ultimately be deleted, regardless of how well or ill-informed the participating consensus could turn out to be as far as the extent of the subject topic's potential coverage in reliable sources is concerned. Haleth (talk) 19:38, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Haleth, why do you continue in discussing contributors here? Your stance doesn't seem to align well with AGF/NPA. Please focus on discussing the topic at question (the nominated article), not the nominator. Thank you. - GizzyCatBella🍁 09:12, 25 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I have made my point or vote on the topic, and my comments are in response to his deletion rationale of this discussion, since Piotrus brought up his own stance from a prior AfD on his own accord. You, on the other hand, have contributed nothing to this discussion so far other then singling me out for comment. Haleth (talk) 11:32, 25 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Piotrus: I appreciate you providing an explanation and your openness to consider sources. I have the impression, though, that you are overlooking sections where the name of the topic does not appear: I count six mentions of the name Jarlaxle in the three pages, rather than "once or twice", and he is also referred to as "the mercenary", etc. I am not very convinced of the test you suggest, as it can easily exclude valid information that is relevant to the article, but only tangentially related to the main topic of the author. I suggest a different test: If I wrote in my words what is in the source, and only gave the primary sources as references, would I be critizised for WP:OR? If that was the case, than there seems to have been some kind of research done by the author. The amount of analysis can of course be debated. Daranios (talk) 12:00, 25 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Daranios, "If I wrote in my words what is in the source, and only gave the primary sources as references, would I be criticised for WP:OR". It is a good test, but here, the answer is 'no', since I think this source doesn't go beyond a plot summary. I don't think it is analytical enough that the author describes the subject as a mercenary or describes him as subtle. That's just a plot summary. Analysis, to me, would exist if the author said something like 'Jarlaxe is an example of a Sheaksperian tragicomic character mixed with Horward's classic barbarian, with a sprinkle of postfeminist character building". I hope you can see the difference. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 12:31, 25 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Piotrus: I have now added what I see in that secondary source as analysis. It also contains plot summary elements, but I think these are necessary to get the analysis part here. I'll readily admit that this does not reach the level you posted as an example; Jarlaxle is not compared to Conan, but to the Knight - I wonder how these two are ranked in global importance. With all these caveats, let's do the test: If I took away de Launay's name and reworded the direct quotations, I still would not feel comfortable to let this paragraph stand with only giving Exile as a source. Would you? Daranios (talk) 12:01, 27 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Daranios, Well, you are right that there would be some OR/editorializing. Let's take the 'Knight' example. It is original, as in, we, the editors, can't make such a comparison. de Launay makes it, and it's her original contribution. But it is a substantial analysis? I don't think so, it's few sentences, and as you say, it's done in the context of the comparison of the book trilogy's plot, which is the main subject. What I'd recommend is to rescue your work and merge the paragraph to the Trilogy in question, as IMHO really what she is analyzing is not Jarlaxe as the books he appears in (and correct me if I am wrong but he is not the main character, but just a supporting one in those, right?). _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 12:12, 27 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Piotrus: To quote the secondary source found by Haleth, Jarlaxle is a "popular supporting character", indeed. Which, like being the main topic of a secondary source or not, is not a criterion for WP:GNG. The quote may be somewhat relevant for the discussion you have with Dream Focus and Haleth below. I myself then stick with the result of my test and my opinion that a merge is fine, but keep is also warranted, and slightly preferred by me. I curiously wait how the decision will be in the end. Daranios (talk) 16:08, 27 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Delete and/or redirect per Haleth. We need coverage in a reliable source, and we need that coverage to be significant. There's nothing here that meets all that criteria. I would accept a redirect if someone wants to clean-up and write some primary sourced information at another relevant article. But Wikipedia cannot have stand-alone articles without any reliable sources. Jontesta (talk) 22:20, 23 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect and mention at Forgotten Realms#Characters, per Boz. Someone can expand it there if they find more sources, per WP:ATD. Archrogue (talk) 02:02, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Selective Merge to Forgotten Realms#Characters, since he is not currently mentioned there. While the sources cited are not enough for him to pass WP:GNG, they are enough for a mention there. Devonian Wombat (talk) 05:51, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Merge to Forgotten Realms#Characters as the character was at before Piotrus removed him and others who have articles [2]. Erasing four characters with articles from it, then sending two to AFD, and tagging another for notability, seems like the wrong order to do things. Anyway, the character is a major character and has a significant part to the plot of some of the books he is in. He should have information about him listed there if this article can be saved from deletion. I don't know what reliable sources out there would review the character. Dream Focus 00:49, 25 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Dream Focus, The problem with that target is that this section makes the claim of discussing 'notable' characters - but I asked for a reliable source that lists 'notable' characters, and none was presented. For Jarlaxe, which independent source - any source - calls him significant in the setting? In general, without such a source, notable characters are the ones that are notable in our understanding and have their own articles. Those can be listed there. The ones that fail to AfD have no place there. Please refer to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Forgotten Realms characters - recreating this list in the article would be clearly against the spirit of that discussion. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:51, 27 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  - Those familiar with the book series can determine which characters are notable enough to be mentioned. Just like the character list for any fictional series does, you use common sense, no one is going to mention all the major characters and specifically tell you they are significant ones. Dream Focus 05:16, 27 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    - Agreed with User:Dream Focus per WP:PAGEDECIDE. There are plenty of sources that at least mentions in passing Jarlaxle's in-universe significance, obviously not enough to justify a standalone article for the topic per WP:GNG, which by the way is not relevant when deciding what to include in such a short list. Being considered notable and being noteworthy enough to fulfill WP:CCOS and warrant a mention as part of a larger topic is not the same thing. Haleth (talk) 06:32, 27 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    - Dream Focus, Wikipedia editors should not judge what is 'important'. That's OR/editorializing. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 07:06, 27 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      - Each and every time a Wikipedia editor carries out an edit or expresses an opinion on anything, that is exercising their judgment on what is or isn't important or relevant, as long as it is verifiable. I don't believe Dream Focus meant that editors familiar with the source material can post facts, allegations, and ideas about the subject topic for which no reliable, published sources exist. Haleth (talk) 13:20, 27 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Keep or merge: I think the secondary sources provided so far are enough to give a paragraph of reception/character analysis. The publication history/appearances in other media are another section of non-plot-summary information. So the minimum requirements of WP:GNG and WP:ALLPLOT can be fulfilled. Given that there is a worthwhile but not a huge amount of treatment in secondary sources, I also have not problem with a proper merge. Daranios (talk) 12:00, 25 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect I love R.A. Salvatore's novels as much as the next guy and have done so for decades ([3][4]), but this is pretty ridiculous. The article contains no real-world information, is written almost entirely in "in-universe" mode, and has been so for years, despite the no-doubt substantial good-faith efforts on the part of the four people who !voted keep last time (actually, one was an LTA sock, one appears to have edited almost exclusively in the "Dungeons & Dragons AFD" topic area, and one largely stopped editing shortly afterward). If all these years have been unable to turn up enough significant real-world coverage to produce an encyclopedic article, then I think it's time to accept that there is no evidence of voter fraud and allow a peaceful transition of power. As for the redirect target, I'm not sure: List of Forgotten Realms characters is currently itself a redirect to a short bulleted list consisting almost exclusively of bare-bones descriptions of characters who are much better-known than Jarlaxle; certainly, none of the content of this overly-detailed, almost-entirely-unsourced article should be merged in there without care. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 02:04, 27 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Off-topic and my position more or less aligns with yours, but I am sure a better inside joke could be made instead of a borderline-tasteless analogy to Trumpism (which has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion at hand), considering the events of earlier this month. Haleth (talk) 03:02, 29 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I mean... I don't think there's any actual connection between the Realms and the writings of R.A. Salvatore, or Wikipedia's coverage thereof, and Trumpism/white supremacy, but the (false) connection has certainly been drawn in the past by (bad-faith? trolling? ignorant?) redditors specifically targeting me (i.e., the fact that I had edited an article with the title "Wulfgar", combined with my username's reference to my year of birth also apparently being a dog-whistle among American and German neo-Nazi groups, was used as "evidence" that I was X, Y and Z), and really I wasn't thinking about the events in Washington so much as alluding to the refusal to accept reality or read the writing on the wall, which is a quality definitely shared by the Trumpists and the people who reflexively !vote "keep" in all these AFDs on fictional characters.

That said, you are right, and I probably should have been more thoughtful about the events in the District of Columbia and elsewhere in the United States in recent weeks, and I apologize for this oversight. I hope this clears it up.

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 03:50, 29 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Merge to Forgotten Realms#Characters. I've been working on the list & I think this character would fit there. Sariel Xilo (talk) 03:48, 27 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect to Forgotten Realms#Characters for now - If someone wanted to create an entry in that section actually using reliable, secondary sources that would be fine, but there really is not much currently in the article that could be merged. The vast majority of the information here is completely unsourced, and the few sources that are being used that are not primary are really just not very good or in-depth on the character. Character lists are generally important parts of coverage on fictional topics, but the information in them is not exempt from the basic tenets of needing to be supported by WP:RS. Rorshacma (talk) 17:14, 29 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.