Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jack van den Berg

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. I agree with several editors opinions that the article c9ntains a lot of sources that are routine appointment announcements. However, I do feel that there are enough in depth sources both in the article and presented here in the discussion to satisfy GNG. Fenix down (talk) 23:18, 23 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Jack van den Berg[edit]

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Football player and coach who fails WP:NFOOTY (entire career in 3rd-5th Dutch divisions). Highly questionable GNG status despite a lot of coverage (most of it is routine). BlameRuiner (talk) 09:04, 17 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Netherlands-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 10:42, 17 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 10:43, 17 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Football-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 10:43, 17 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions.CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 10:44, 17 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Seems hard to verify with these citations, article is poorly written and seems to suffer from being WP:PROMOTIONAL. Govvy (talk) 10:59, 17 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Govvy, which phrases felt promotional or were poorly written? Could you fix in the text? I wrote the article and took great care to write everything very factual and well referenced (non-routine). The player turned coach has 40 years of extensive coverage online so not difficult at all. Passes the WP:GNG with flying colors. WP:ANYBIO as well. gidonb (talk) 22:00, 17 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - fails WP:GNG and WP:NFOOTBALL. Giant Snowman 11:34, 17 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Strong keep – Article on a full-time professional football coach (in between clubs) who clearly clearly passes the WP:GNG, as supported by WP:RS, WP:SIGCOV, WP:NOTROUTINE, and WP:NEXIST. Coverage is not routine as Van den Berg won the national Rinus Michels Award, led his team to the championship of the Tweede Klasse last year and previously has been noted as uniquely coaching and promoting the first squads of two long time rivals from the same small town into the level next competitions, in the very same season. The article is so poorly written that is was awarded C-class by Wikipedia:WikiProject Biography and Wikipedia:WikiProject Football. Nothing promotional about this article either; it tells the dry facts of coach's football career. Finally, we do not have rules against foreign language references, especially not for people working in countries where English is not the official language. It is one of the better referenced articles in our encyclopedia, as acknowledged also through the quality score. gidonb (talk) 12:37, 17 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Gidonb: Would you mind presenting the best WP:THREE sources available for him in terms of passing WP:GNG? I looked through and everything seems on the routine side so I'm leaning delete, but it's also mostly in Dutch, which I can't read without use of a translation service. SportingFlyer talk 11:02, 19 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Insertcleverphrasehere below that winning the Rinus Michels Award is a big deal that comes with lots of coverage and makes these managers into a household names, prompting increased interest over the entire span of careers. Everyone should make up their own mind based on the reliable sources, significant coverage that for a large part are not routine. Before we sidetrack the conversation, however, it is important to note that also "'routine coverage' is not a disqualification for notability". So let's stick to the core. Jack van den Berg clearly passes the WP:GNG and WP:ANYBIO, per WP:RS, WP:SIGCOV, WP:NOTROUTINE, and WP:NEXIST. gidonb (talk) 14:46, 20 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Considering other Rinus Michels amateur winners include Wilfred van Leeuwen (there's some coverage of his move to an assistant coach at FC Eindhoven but probably should be AfD'd) and Simon Ouaali's coverage of winning the award is similar to [1] and appears to be a borderline article for AfD as well (I did find [2] on Oualli.) I don't think winning the award as an amateur coach is a presumptive notability grant which is why I'm curious as to what the best three sources are. Also, you quote WP:NOTROUTINE which is an essay. SportingFlyer talk 15:08, 20 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, Wilfred van Leeuwen was THE manager of FC Eindhoven last year. Simon Ouaali currently coaches a professional team. There are great sources on all these nationally famed managers in all the articles and otherwise online. Ex-article, online Reliable Sources count just as well per WP:NEXIST. You are welcome to draw your own conclusions on Jack van den Berg, as others do, and AfD as you please. gidonb (talk) 16:09, 20 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

You're right on van Leeuwen - it looked to me as if he was the trainer under Nascimento since I don't read Dutch. I'm leaning keep, I just want to see another feature article or two - a lot of these articles are only a couple paragraphs long. SportingFlyer talk 01:00, 21 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. I do read Dutch but not knowing a language one can still make good contributions, including in AFDs. It just takes a little extra time. Here the research has been done. Helpful quotes are in the references. Titles have been translated. If something remains unclear, you can stick it into Google Translate. These 30 references are just a small part of what has been published about Van den Berg, from the 1970s upto this very month. There is much more but the article is well referenced as is. gidonb (talk) 05:06, 21 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Gidonb: It is difficult when you're not familiar with the language. It's clear to me the sources I've tried can't show notability (for instance, a long interview with him) - if you could please point me to one additional feature article on him apart from the ones linked below (it can be in the article already) I'll vote keep. SportingFlyer talk 07:31, 21 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

In general, interviews are longer and other articles are shorter. That's how journalism works. It makes sense. If the journalist tells about coach's thoughts when he takes his dog out, we'd quickly move on to the next item. When the coach tells in first voice that only then he feels happy, we say interesting. So you're aiming for somewhat of an impossibility, hopefully not on purpose. That said, this article is at eight paragraphs rather long. Enjoy! gidonb (talk) 08:03, 21 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

PS, I also like the "dubbelfunctie" article that Insertcleverphrasehere quotes. gidonb (talk) 08:30, 21 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Keep This is a well written and well cited article, and the wiki won't be improved by deleting it. There are quite a few sources that are pretty good, which go into his background in a non-trivial way (such as [https://voetbalindebollenstreek.nl/jack-berg-volgt-dick-schreuder-op-vv-katwijk/}). He won a notable award (the Rinus Michels Award) which arguably satisfies WP:ANYBIO #1; for a person in his profession it is a top award. — Insertcleverphrasehere ^{(or here)} 11:23, 19 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately even with the couple paragraphs of biographical information, the article you linked appears to me to be a routine announcement of a coaching transaction. I also don't think the award is an automatic notability grant - he won the amateur team award, which arguably isn't a "top award in the field." I'm still on the fence about this one - do better sources exist? SportingFlyer talk 11:40, 19 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

For amateur club coaches, it is a top award. There is an absolute mountain of sources about this guy on google news searches, nearly all of which are in dutch which makes it tough to dig through everything. I can't quite find anything that screams 'awesome rock solid source' but there is a ton of stuff like this, and there is probably additional coverage in print media, as his playing career and coaching career stretches back quite a while into the pre-internet age, but this is going to be impossible for anyone to find unless they know a lot about football in the Netherlands. — Insertcleverphrasehere ^{(or here)} 11:54, 19 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@SportingFlyer: Actually, I did just find this article on him, which is pretty great. — Insertcleverphrasehere ^{(or here)} 11:59, 19 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Insertcleverphrasehere: is voetballrotterdam.nl an acceptable site to use? I honestly can't tell if it's a blog or a professional publication. SportingFlyer talk 15:08, 20 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Good finds! Voetbal Rotterdam is one of the Dutch prime sources for soccer news. A news site that competes with the dailies and with Voetbal International, the Dutch prime soccer magazine. gidonb (talk) 16:24, 20 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@SportingFlyer: I found a second source discussing him in detail: see [3]. Combined with [4], This should be enough for GNG, even if you want to say that he doesn't qualify for WP:ANYBIO #1. — Insertcleverphrasehere ^{(or here)} 08:11, 21 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.