Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/J. B. Eckl (2nd nomination)

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Due to minimal participation (non-admin closure) RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 03:03, 28 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

J. B. Eckl[edit]

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J. B. Eckl (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)
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Fails WP:MUSICBIO WP:COMPOSER WP:SIGCOV Serv181920 (talk) 15:56, 5 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Music-related deletion discussions. Serv181920 (talk) 15:56, 5 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Canada-related deletion discussions. Serv181920 (talk) 15:56, 5 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. ---DOOMSDAYER520 (TALK|CONTRIBS) 14:25, 7 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Of the four sources presented for the article, one is dead and the other three mention the subject once. Clearly very fitting for GNG. Lettlerhello • contribs 19:42, 5 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - he was interviewed by Rainn Wilson[1], Naysan Naraqi[2], Music Gear Network[3], and the LA Beat[4]. Musically, he was in the band War, and produced hit tracks for KC Porter and Carlos Santana. I think there is enough there for notability. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 04:54, 6 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Looking over newspapers.com: "Porter co-produced Elan's demo along with J.B. Eckl, a former member of the band War."[5]; "Best original song: Flying Home, written by Clint Eastwood, Tierney Sutton, and J.B. Eckl."[6]; "with the help of lyricist J.B. Eckl, she wrote the words to "Flying Home" with a bit of additional help from [Clint] Eastwood.[7]; coverage of War with Eckl's picture[8]; coverage of Santana's album, mentioning Eckl's contribution[9]; produced music for Cape of Good Hope (film)[10]; "Johnstone has fond memories of visits from many musicians, including Bruce Cockburn and guitarist JB Eckl, a Saskatoon product and now an LA-based producer, who has been part of Carlos Santana's Grammy-winning work."[11]. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 05:37, 6 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
"Interviewed by so-and-so" is not a notability criterion. Bearcat (talk) 23:26, 7 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - Riann Wilson, Naysan Naraqi and the creator of this article, Cuñado, are all the followers of the Baha'i faith. And two of those interviews are published on www.bahaiblog.net which is not a neutral source. Baha'i wiki-editor creating an article for a Baha'i musician and citing Baha'i interviews published on Baha'i blogs does not make the subject notable. I cannot comment on the reliability of other two sources (Music Gear Network and LA Beats). The mentions in those newspapers is WP:TRIVIALMENTIONS - for instance, "Johnstone has fond memories of visits from many musicians, including Bruce Cockburn and guitarist JB Eckl, a Saskatoon product and now an LA-based producer, who has been part of Carlos Santana's Grammy-winning work." Source : https://www.newspapers.com/image/242126930/ has a photograph of 8 people, and the subject is one of them. The article mentions him only once as "J.B.Eckl (guitar/vocalist)" that's all. This article is very poorly sourced.Serv181920 (talk) 09:34, 6 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Your definition of independent is clearly wrong. The subject here is an individual who is not a member of any Baha'i institution. Rainn Wilson is a celebrity also not connected to the Baha'i administration with his own interview podcast. Wikipedia:Notability (music): "independent of the musician or ensemble itself"; his notability comes from musical achievements, not being a Baha'i. Non-independent would be several online biographies that Eckl or his band wrote themselves, or his own Youtube channel. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 14:30, 6 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
As the name suggests www.bahaiblog.net is a Baha'i website that promotes Baha'i artists and Baha'i religion. I am not sure how it is independet and reliable for wikipedia articles! About Naysan Naraqi and his works, the bahaiblog article about Naysan states : "His experience as a producer for CNN was invaluable while working on a number of special projects for the Baha’i World Centre, including the "Building Momentum" and "Pilgrimage: A Sacred Experience" videos. If there’s a media-related Baha’i project out there, chances are that Naysan was involved with it somehow!"
You say "his notability comes from musical achievements, not being a Baha'i." but where are the sources that significantly cover the subect and produce his achievements?Serv181920 (talk) 16:37, 6 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Despite its name, bahaiblog.net has paid staff and an editorial team. It's not a blog. It's also independent of the subject, and one of the interviewers is a celebrity. The other two interviews are purely career related. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 15:19, 7 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Both wrong. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 03:00, 8 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Simple google search with Naysan's name and those websites reveals their connection. Be that as it may, bahaiblog is not a good source for this subject to establish notability. Reasons stated above.Serv181920 (talk) 09:48, 8 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
You are conflating notability and reliability, and you obviously don't understand the sources you're talking about. bahaiteachings.org is a quasi-blog, anybody can submit articles to it and become an "author", though it also has a 12-person staff to get by. It was founded by Payam Zamani, and Naraqi's author page there is one of maybe a thousand authors. Naraqi wrote one single article for bahaiteachings.org in 2015 and is not a "manager" of the site. bahaiblog.net was founded by Naysan Naraqi, and has an 8-person staff. It is more of a content producer, but I think it also takes articles. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 22:04, 8 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Be that as it may, the sources you cite to prove the notability of this subject are very poor.Serv181920 (talk) 17:37, 12 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment This argument is irrelevant and does not belong in this AfD, or in Wikipedia in general. By this logic, I should not be able to edit articles on Jewish individuals. Further, religious musicians will sometimes give interviews with religious publications, consider the many Christian gospel musicians, or the Jewish reggae musician Matisyahu. It is fine to question whether a given source is reliable or acceptable based on our RS guidelines, and it can be difficult with blogs, since that spans a wide range of reliability (even MEDRS allows a few exceptional blogs, for example). But please, leave out the religious faith of the subject, editors, and sources. There are very few exceptional circumstances where that may become relevant (ie Scientology in the context of psychiatry), but this is not one of them. Hyperion35 (talk) 15:07, 15 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, 78.26 (spin me / revolutions) 02:20, 13 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, 78.26 (spin me / revolutions) 00:21, 21 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • The issue is sources. This subject is not notable per wiki policies. Proving notability from sources that are weak and not independent of the subject or trivial mentions in newspapers is helpful. Serv181920 (talk) 09:19, 22 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
For the 10th time, your definition of "independent" is wrong. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 01:35, 26 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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