Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Instrument of Degradation
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was speedy keep. The nominator has withdrawn the nomination and there are no other arguments for deletion. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 14:05, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
Instrument of Degradation[edit]
- Instrument of Degradation (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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Article has had two CSD tags removed, one for no content by the creator with minimal content added and one for duplicate content by a third party stating a redirect was possible. A PROD tag was also removed by a third party stating the topic was probably notable.
The idea of an instrument of degradation is a general concept of a document stating that someone is removed from a particular position of honor or honorable society (thus not particularly notable, though certain degradations may be), yet the only example and source provided are the same example and source provided in Order of the Garter#Degradation of members. A redirect would not be appropriate at this point because the only main space article that links to the page is also the only place this article could plausibly be redirected. Adding a clarifying statement to the Garter article would satisfy any need to provide additional information and still satisfy WP:NOT#DICT. — Jkudlick tcs 12:25, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of United Kingdom-related deletion discussions. — Jkudlick tcs 12:33, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
- CommentI created the article after noting that it appears to be a specific act directed at office holders. I am certainly not an expert in the area and was hoping a stub would flesh out more meaning and subjects. It didn't appear to be specifically related to the Order of the Garter and I presumed more knowledgeable editors would add to it or acknowledge that it is only an Order of the Garter sanction Without either, though, it should remain as a stub. Other notable awards or distinctions are articles such as Medal of Honor --DHeyward (talk) 13:43, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
- You're correct that the Medal of Honor has its own article as the highest military decoration in the United States, as does the Victoria Cross for its similar stature within the UK and the Realms (and the versions specific to Australia, Canada, and New Zealand). Similarly, the Order of Canada, the various UK Orders of Chivalry, and Legion of Honour are among a number of high-level awards given to civilians which have their own articles, yet members of those orders can be removed (degraded) after a process involving the investigation of allegations of misdeeds (in the case of the Order of the Garter, Order of the Thistle, and Royal Victorian Order, members can be removed at HM's will as those orders are in the Sovereign's Personal Gift, though such removals are exceedingly rare). Each removal includes an official notice to the public in the form of letters patent that the individual has been removed from that order – this is the instrument of degradation though it may have other names, e.g. an Ordinance of termination from the Order of Canada. (See Sections 25 and 26 and the Policy and Procedure for Termination of Appointment to the Order Of Canada of the Constitution of the Order of Canada.) Highly notable individuals degraded from an order can be mentioned in the order's article, and the degradation can also mentioned in the individual's article, but an instrument of degradation is just a public notice that someone is no longer in an order. — Jkudlick tcs 01:24, 30 December 2014 (UTC)
- We have articles on other similar notices such as arrest warrant or as you referenced above, letters patent. The historical pageantry for an Instrument of Degradation seems a bit beyond just a notice. Striking down the the KG's stuff from St. George's chapel and kicking it out the door as the instrument is read seems a bit more than public notice. We have articles on Coronation which in the dictionary is just a ceremony or crowning a monarch but it's history is what makes it encyclopedic. If there are different ceremonies surrounding various Instrument of Degradation, that is what should be captured here. I don't disagree with your meaning and I wrote it as what I knew of an instrument but also added the case that used that term. I suspect there are more and different procedures for different orders. --DHeyward (talk) 02:37, 30 December 2014 (UTC)
- The pageantry of which you speak was not about the instrument itself, but about the public announcement that the person was being degraded and the humiliation surrounding it. As noted, the last such "ceremony" was in 1715 or 1716 when James Butler, 2nd Duke of Ormonde, was degraded following his conviction in absentia of treason. Numerous people have been degraded from various orders since then, the vast majority without the pomp and circumstance that once existed; even the foreign leaders who were supernumerary members and fought against the UK in the World Wars were not subjected to the full ceremony of degradation, and one (Emperor Hirohito) was even reinstalled. — Jkudlick tcs 04:00, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
- Should it be renamed "Ceremonies of Degradation"? That's what I found encyclopedic. It was the fact that the accounts were more than just a public notice. --DHeyward (talk) 04:58, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
- I would not be averse to that if additional "ceremonies" can be added and appropriately sourced. I have a few friends in the heraldry community who may be able to assist with some research, though it may be limited to Western Europe. I will admit to possibly being too hasty with this nomination, and look forward to collaborating on this. — Jkudlick tcs 05:34, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
- That would be perfect as the only known source I have seen had a very specific sequence that was ritualized and seemed rehearsed - throwing the stuff into the choir and then kicking out the side door - obviously done more than once. Other orders may may have had similiar rituals? (dunno). Japan had some other rituals that may or may not be related around the time of the Tokugawa Shogunate. More that just Seppuku which we cover. --DHeyward (talk) 06:17, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
- I would not be averse to that if additional "ceremonies" can be added and appropriately sourced. I have a few friends in the heraldry community who may be able to assist with some research, though it may be limited to Western Europe. I will admit to possibly being too hasty with this nomination, and look forward to collaborating on this. — Jkudlick tcs 05:34, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
- Should it be renamed "Ceremonies of Degradation"? That's what I found encyclopedic. It was the fact that the accounts were more than just a public notice. --DHeyward (talk) 04:58, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
- The pageantry of which you speak was not about the instrument itself, but about the public announcement that the person was being degraded and the humiliation surrounding it. As noted, the last such "ceremony" was in 1715 or 1716 when James Butler, 2nd Duke of Ormonde, was degraded following his conviction in absentia of treason. Numerous people have been degraded from various orders since then, the vast majority without the pomp and circumstance that once existed; even the foreign leaders who were supernumerary members and fought against the UK in the World Wars were not subjected to the full ceremony of degradation, and one (Emperor Hirohito) was even reinstalled. — Jkudlick tcs 04:00, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
- We have articles on other similar notices such as arrest warrant or as you referenced above, letters patent. The historical pageantry for an Instrument of Degradation seems a bit beyond just a notice. Striking down the the KG's stuff from St. George's chapel and kicking it out the door as the instrument is read seems a bit more than public notice. We have articles on Coronation which in the dictionary is just a ceremony or crowning a monarch but it's history is what makes it encyclopedic. If there are different ceremonies surrounding various Instrument of Degradation, that is what should be captured here. I don't disagree with your meaning and I wrote it as what I knew of an instrument but also added the case that used that term. I suspect there are more and different procedures for different orders. --DHeyward (talk) 02:37, 30 December 2014 (UTC)
- You're correct that the Medal of Honor has its own article as the highest military decoration in the United States, as does the Victoria Cross for its similar stature within the UK and the Realms (and the versions specific to Australia, Canada, and New Zealand). Similarly, the Order of Canada, the various UK Orders of Chivalry, and Legion of Honour are among a number of high-level awards given to civilians which have their own articles, yet members of those orders can be removed (degraded) after a process involving the investigation of allegations of misdeeds (in the case of the Order of the Garter, Order of the Thistle, and Royal Victorian Order, members can be removed at HM's will as those orders are in the Sovereign's Personal Gift, though such removals are exceedingly rare). Each removal includes an official notice to the public in the form of letters patent that the individual has been removed from that order – this is the instrument of degradation though it may have other names, e.g. an Ordinance of termination from the Order of Canada. (See Sections 25 and 26 and the Policy and Procedure for Termination of Appointment to the Order Of Canada of the Constitution of the Order of Canada.) Highly notable individuals degraded from an order can be mentioned in the order's article, and the degradation can also mentioned in the individual's article, but an instrument of degradation is just a public notice that someone is no longer in an order. — Jkudlick tcs 01:24, 30 December 2014 (UTC)
- Withdrawn As nominator and article creator have come to an agreement to alter and expand the scope of the article. — Jkudlick tcs 05:34, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.