Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/House of Moytoy

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. MBisanz ^talk 16:33, 13 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

House of Moytoy[edit]

Subject is non-existent Binary TSO ^??? 11:54, 6 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This article should not be deleted. It needs to be edited instead. It is the only article returned by a search for the term "Moytoy" which is a significant name in Cherokee history and genealogy. In addition, the term "House of Moytoy" refers to the Cherokee family of English and Shawnee origin. They are male-line descendants of an English trader, Thomas Pasmere Carpenter, whose family was related to Baron Carpenter of Killaghy and the Earl of Tyrconnell. Ref: G.E. Cokayne; with Vicary Gibbs, H.A. Doubleday, Geoffrey H. White, Duncan Warrand and Lord Howard de Walden, editors, The Complete Peerage of England, Scotland, Ireland, Great Britain and the United Kingdom, Extant, Extinct or Dormant, new ed., 13 volumes in 14 (1910-1959; reprint in 6 volumes, Gloucester, U.K.: Alan Sutton Publishing, 2000), volume III, page 54. Hereinafter cited as The Complete Peerage.

This article holds significance in Native American culture. I have requested arbitration. The article should not have been swiped clean without discussion. Odestiny (talk) 21:13, 6 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The article is based on Victorian fantasy derived from the exploits of a Scottish con artist from England, Alexander Cumming, who attempted to gain control over the Cherokee by naming one of the leaders of one of the smaller and more remote towns as "emperor" of the Cherokee, whose name he corrupted to Moytoy. That is all there was to it. There is no "House of Moytoy" and never was, they have no relation to any family of "Carpenters", Cherokee did not have any surnames until the very late 18th century, their families were matrilineal rather than patrilineal, they did not have "royal dynasties", and the individual Cumming named Moytoy had no European genes. The reference cited above is meaningless because there is no relation. And I repeat, there never was a "House of Moytoy".

There are already articles on Moytoy I and Moytoy II (neither of which, by the way, cite any sources at all, much less credible sources), which Mr. Sneed would have learned had he bothered to search. They themselves in fact need editing because the article on Moytoy I, at least, echoes many of the fictions Odestiny tried to pass off as fact above, in addition to being full of geneaological fantasies that have grown up in recent years, and widely discredited by reputable, credible geneaologists.

Wikipedia had been making an attempt to provide credible, factual information to the American public and the world at large. Allowing this article to stand would be reversing that course. Chuck Hamilton (talk) 22:39, 6 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Nice pedigree above, but the idea of a Cherokee "royal house" (in itself a historically erroneous concept) being related the Anglo-Irish Carpenter family originated in the fantsy that Attakullakulla, whom the whites called Little Carpenter, was a member of that family. In fact, he was called Little Carpenter because Attakullakulla means "Leaning wood", which whites turned into Little Carpenter, the "Little" because of his physical stature. Attakullakulla, according to his son Turtle-at-Home, wasn't even Cherokee originally; he was from a branch of the Algonquin Nippising up north captured as an infant and adopted by a minor chief. Chuck Hamilton (talk) 06:21, 7 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There is no Cherokee "royal house". That is not the point. The article is called "House of Moytoy, not "Royal House of Moytoy". Well known facts about Attakullakulla are being turned to suit the purpose of removing the article. There are no names or statements from "reputable, credible geneaologists" provided to support his claims. In fact, a simple search of the web will deliver an abundance of material that supports the claims of the article. Hamilton is choosing to spend his time rewriting Native American history. The wild, unsupported and egotistical statements he has made in the discussion are unwarranted. It should be simple enough to edit these articles by siting his own sources without making deletions based simply on his word. He does not appear to have the credentials to back it up. I have asked him why he chose to edit Cherokee related articles and on what he based his information, and did not receive an answer. It appears unreasonable for a Non-Cherokee to concentrate on the Moytoy line with such fervor without motive. There are many other articles in greater need of attention.Odestiny (talk) 07:35, 7 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There was no "House of Moytoy", and you're wanting there to have been isn't going to change that. A patrilineal European-style "House" in a matrilineal society is laughable on its face. The "source" you referenced on the Moytoy I article is so riddled with errors if it were handed in as a paper in a college class (or even a high school class), it would receive a failing grade, because it is all invented, not reality. The standard for Wikipedia is credible sources, not just any sources. And the "history" isn't "Native American", it's American, as in white American, and a fantasy. What's more, your source considers the "Georgia Tribe of Eastern Cherokee" to be an actual tribe of actual Cherokee, which if you had bothered to do even a modicum of research you would have learned. As for your bigoted reference to my race, I'm interested in historical accuracy. Chuck Hamilton (talk) 07:49, 7 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I drop my argument with apologies to Mr. Hamilton. I will not challenge the deletion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Odestiny (talk • contribs) 08:04, 7 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete for lack of reliable sources and substantial doubts. There were two Chiefs Moytoy, and they did have influential relatives, but the leap from that to a "House of Moytoy" depends on Eurocentric assumptions. WillOakland (talk) 13:02, 8 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Since Monday I have gone through over a dozen books that are available on Google, and there is just no support for the existence of a Cherokee "royal family" at this time. Historians agree that the Cherokee were very fragmented before 1794. Best I can tell, "Moytoy" was nothing more than a title for the rainmaker of a particular town, without any implication of a blood relationship. WillOakland (talk) 02:42, 13 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.