Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Honchy Brid massacre

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 05:32, 14 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Honchy Brid massacre[edit]

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Unreliable and low-quality references that do not meet ArbCom's recommendation for this topic area - also a case of dubious notability. GizzyCatBella🍁 08:07, 5 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Crime-related deletion discussions. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 08:22, 5 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Events-related deletion discussions. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 08:22, 5 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 08:22, 5 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Poland-related deletion discussions. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 08:22, 5 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Ukraine-related deletion discussions. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 08:22, 5 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Draftify. I need to review this in more detail - GScholar and GBook give zero hits, but the problem may be due to the name of the place having alernative renderings from Cyrillic into Latin English (in other words, finding sources for this is harder than usual). Anyway, sourcing is a major issue here. This is what GCB presumably means by the ArbCom's recommendations: Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Antisemitism_in_Poland#Amendment_(May_2021). TL;DR it strongly encourages " a peer-reviewed scholarly journals, an academically focused book by a reputable publisher, and/or an article published by a reputable institution)" in this topic area. The sources in the article don't appear to meet this recommendation (they seem to be to newspapers and like, some of which may be partisan, Ukrainian press is not a particularly neutral source when it comes to this topic), and if we remove them, ArbCom remedy makes it difficult to re-add them. That in turn means the article is theoretically unreferenced. Or, ArbCom aside, the sources in the article are very weak. For controversial topics like this we should to be better. For now, if better sources are not found, I'd suggest draftifying this in the creator's userspace. A mention of this tragedy may be relevant in the article about the history of this village, but the notability of this tragedy is also unclear. We need reliable scholarly sources that discuss it. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 09:55, 5 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. There are like 20 different ways to write the name of this village (like Gonchiy Brod or Gończy Bród, h/g o/i and over vowel changes) and there are lots of sources in Ukrainian and even sources in the language of the murderers, Polish. Covered in several pages in book edited by historian Yaroslav Isayevich ([1][2]) and published by NASU Institute of History of Ukraine: Волинь і Холмщина 1938–1947 pp.: польсько-українське протистояння та його відлуння. Дослідження, документи, спогади. For a source in English, The Day (Kyiv) is a broadsheet newspapers andwrote this coverage.--Erin Vaxx (talk) 10:40, 5 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

even sources in the language of the murderers, Polish This kind of comment speaks for itself. Volunteer Marek 22:17, 5 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Who is the author of the chapter containing those pages? What is the name of the chapter? Is there are digitized version that we could at least machine translate to English? _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 13:01, 5 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Keep, or perhaps draftify. There is confusion here around translation and it could be a mistake to delete. I think the article should be retained in some form while the sourcing issues are resolved. No Great Shaker (talk) 13:11, 5 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - I don't know whether this should be deleted or not. Outside the few newspaper sources, which may not be reliable, there does not seem to be any coverage. I consulted a couple major works on the Volhynian Massacres (like Motyka 2011) and there's no mention although that may possibly be due to a difference in name spelling. But it does seem like notability, if any, for this particular event, is recent and derived mostly from a photo op by the Ukrainian president. The thing is, there were hundreds of similar massacres committed between 1942 and 1945 by Ukrainian nationalists in Volhynia and Galicia - so... should there be an article on every single one? I recall this coming up a few years ago and a user who created such articles getting warned/banned and their articles deleted. So why this one but not the hundreds of other ones? Volunteer Marek 22:33, 5 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Book by historian Исаевич, Ярослав Дмитриевич is significant. The memorial received a state visit by President of Ukraine Petro Poroshenko so that's a sign of significance, and that was covered plenty too.--Droid I am (talk) 09:19, 6 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Which book? Are you saying there is a book dedicated to this tragedy? As for a presidential visit, WP:NOTINHERITED needs to be kept in mind. If a visit generated plenty of coverage (an assertion that isn't well proven at this point), then the visit is notable. This doesn't translate into giving notability to other topics. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 09:23, 6 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Draftify per Piotrus. Articles on historically contentious topics that lack sufficient sources for verification are a serious hygiene risk for us, especially if the sources are not in English. The AfC process is better for fixing articles than the AfD process, providing there is, as it appears there is, will to tackle the problems within a few months. — Charles Stewart (talk) 19:09, 7 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Keep a valid topic, clearly significant coverage in Ukrainian language sources (cf. also BBC Ukrainian Service: [3]). The article of course is too short but in so far as I understand these matters, it was initially longer, but unsourced. (Like the case is in the Ukrainian Wikipedia). I think we should give users time to develop it. Polska jest Najważniejsza (talk) 14:19, 9 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Google Scholar does contain several sources about this tragedy. I added a publication in the Eminak journal, which mentions that 73 Ukrainians were killed. The Uryadovy Kuryer source does seem reliable to me. It's an official journal published by the government. Moreover, it does mention that the information about the village being looted and 73 civilians killed was collected from the national archive. Dr.KBAHT (talk) 18:16, 11 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.