Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Holodomor denial

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Closed early due to the unanimous result and the withdrawal of the nomination. Sandstein (talk) 12:21, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Holodomor denial

Holodomor denial (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

This article has multiple issues but I'll try to stick to the main ones.

1. Firstly, the article violates WP:NPOV/Article naming which states that article titles are expected to exhibit the highest degree of neutrality and that they should not suggest a viewpoint either "for" or "against" any given issue. The term "holodomor denial" is heavily loaded because (a) it draws a calculated parallel with Holocaust denial which is generally agreed to be a despicable phenomenon, and (b) because it is essentially an accusation of denialism - ie, a "pejorative term" which carries "the implication that the person or group denies scientific or historical truths".

2. The definition of "holodomor denial" given in the article - , ie "holodomor denial is stating that the...great famine of 1932-33 in Ukraine which...claimed millions of lives, never took place" is an original research thesis which has no apparent support from reliable sources. A google search reveals that the Ukrainian government passed a law in 2006 declaring the holodomor famine to be an act of genocide against the Ukrainian people, and that the government is currently drafting a law making "holodomor denial" a crime. The Ukrainian government appears to be the only reliable source utilizing the term. Thus, "holodomor denial" means genocide denial, ie denying the 1932-33 Ukrainian famine was an act of genocide [1] [2] [3] - a definition at odds with the definition given in this article. This distinction is of great importance because almost all the content of the article is based on the false premise that "holodomor denial" simply means "denial of the famine". Once this premise is removed, virtually the entire content becomes untenable.

3. The article is a POV fork from Holodomor, and from other articles such as Walter Duranty and Louis Fischer where much of the content has been lifted and then reshaped in the new article in a loaded manner. By taking a loose and fallacious definition of "holodomor denial" as its main premise, numerous individuals and organizations can then be labelled "holodomor deniers" because at some stage they denied or downplayed the severity of the famine. But if one takes the definition of "holodomor denial" as employed by the Ukrainian government (the main promoter of the term and the only apparent source of any reliability which employs it) as "denial that a genocide took place", then most of the content in the new article is untenable and there is virtually nothing left which is not already covered in the Holodomor article itself or the other articles, but in a more NPOV way. Gatoclass (talk) 07:08, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

• Rename the article at least to something that is a lot less inherently POV as outlined in argument #1 by the nom. Definitely has the look of a POV fork about it, but it looks as if this belief may have seriously been held in the past, even if nobody seriously holds it now. A keep/delete opinion will be forthcoming. Lankiveil (talk) 09:05, 1 January 2008 (UTC).
• Keep -the constructed parallel with Holocaust denial is a personal opinion. The facts are: Holodomor denial referrers to the denial of the great famine called Holodomor [4]in Ukraine that is clearly spelled out by provided refs [5][6] in the article while Holocaust denial referrers to the genocide against Jewish people. Whether Holodomor denial also means a genocide denial depends on the international recognition of Holodomor as an act of genocide, not on the constructed parallels listed above.--Termer (talk) 09:22, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

• Termer and the other editors of this page have been persistently raising red herrings like this on the article's talk page for days (when they've bothered to respond to my concerns at all, that is). Termer's supposed references do not even mention the term "holodomor denial", let alone attempt to define it. Gatoclass (talk) 09:56, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

• Gatoclass I interpret this yet another personal opinion of yours as a communication problem between you and me and the rest of the editors involved. Perhaps you never took a look at the refs and are not aware of the fact that the great famine in Ukraine is called holodomor [7]?And that the famine called holodomor has been denied? I've already suggested to you rename the article The famine called Holodomor denial [8] but for some reason you ignored this suggestion as well like you have ignored the references in the article.--Termer (talk) 18:49, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

• Keep What the term means is a content issue and not a matter for deletion. Colonel Warden (talk) 10:08, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

• Huh? Plenty of AFD's involve "content issues". The top two criteria for deletion mention content, the second one which states (I quote): "Content not suitable for an encyclopedia." I am asking the community to make a judgement about whether or not a page with an inherently POV name like "Holodomor denial" and moreover with content based entirely on a demonstrably false assumption about the meaning of the term, with no reference in support of it, is content suitable for an encyclopedia. Gatoclass (talk) 10:28, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

• Since it seems beyond dispute that the Ukrainian government is passing a law against this, the subject is evidently suitable for this encyclopaedia. The presentation, title and tone of the article are what you object to and this should be resolved on the article's talk pages, not here. Deletion is not necessary to address your concerns - you are just coming here because you have failed to sway the consensus of editors working on the article, right? Colonel Warden (talk) 19:11, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Assuming for a moment that the subject was legitimate as you suggest, does one really need a separate article to state that the Ukrainian government is passing a law against holodomor denial? This information is already on the Holodomor page itself, where it should be. Gatoclass (talk) 20:14, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

One does need a separate article since suppression of information about the famine dates to the famine itself and that initial suppression is a significant player in current interpretations. For example, as Stalin suppressed awareness of the famine in the West and as a result failed to receive aid as in earlier famines, e.g., when Hoover managed massive grain aid to the USSR in the 1920's, what was his goal? To merely avoid embarrassment? To accelerate collectivization by increasing the numbers of starving incalcitrant peasants? This is worthy of separate examination on its own outside of the events of the Holodomor and contributing factors, which is the topic of the main article. I'm sorry, but your (Gatoclass's) nomination for deletion appears to be fixated on certain aspects, projecting them in a generic fashion (as in not approving of the term "denial"), and concluding this is all non-encyclopedic.—PētersV (talk) 22:12, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

• Keep, I think the establishment of Holodomor as a catastrophic famine is supported well enough to name statement that the famine did not take place as Holodomor denial. The article is not about the definition the article is about a historical theory that IMHO is notable enough. Holodomor is already quite long, so separating the material into a separate article is reasonable. The article is indeed need to be checked on WP:BLP and WP:NPOV conformity, but IMHO is salvageable Alex Bakharev (talk) 10:40, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
• Keep. This is a well-researched article, on an important topic. Lots of editors have worked hard to bring it to this point in a matter of days. Contrary to invidious assertions in the nomination, the material was not "lifted" from other articles, such as the ones on Duranty and Fischer. Indeed, there was absolutely no mention of the Holodomor in the Louis Fischer article previously (see this version); material developed in this article here was condensed and ported there (by me, in fact) since then. As for Duranty, yes, there was much more in that article to start with, but considerable effort has been spent in developing further that stuff in this article, and putting it in better context. And this is only a fraction of the work that went into the article, work which has not been made any easier by the nominator, who since slapping a POV tag, with a claim that the well-known statements by Duranty on the Ukraine famine in The New York Times were only "alleged", and with a claim that the title of the article brings an "odious similarity", has worked very hard at bringing myriad reasons to spike the article, of an ever-widening scope, never once trying to listen to a counter-argument, or to seek consensus. And the arguments for keeping the article are many, and they are coherent and logical, and they do conform to WP policies and guidelines. Turgidson (talk) 15:52, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

I started this AFD because I felt no-one was responding to my concerns on the talk page, and because you insisted on tag team reverting even so much as a disputed template on the basis that my concerns were invalid. So I felt I had little choice but to consult the wider community over the outstanding issues, in hopes of at least getting a more constructive debate going. I chose AFD because, quite frankly, I have never had a response from an article RFC or other process, and thought perhaps I could get more response from an AFD, and also because I thought, obviously, that an AFD debate in this instance was justified.

I have tried to outline my concerns in my opening statement above. The article title is loaded and thoroughly unencyclopedic in my view. To make matters worse, the article uses an original research definition of this already loaded term in order to widen the field of targets. In addition I fail to see why the information presented here cannot be included in the already existing Holodomor, Walter Duranty and Louis Fischer pages (indeed, much of it already is).

Although I personally feel that any valid content at this page would be better included in the individual articles mentioned above, I am not implacably opposed to the notion of having a page which traces the history of public responses to the holodomor, although I have some doubts as to whether such a page will not eventually end up looking like a POV fork in any case. What I am opposed to is the framing of the entire debate through the loaded lens of a "holodomor denial" charge, and with an erroneous definition to go along with it. If the page name were changed to something more NPOV, and the flawed definition rectified, that might be enough to salvage the page. But if you are going to insist on keeping the loaded term and the flawed definition, as you have been doing, then I feel the only remaining option is to have the page deleted. Gatoclass (talk) 17:39, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Just for the record, the claim that I engaged in "tag team reverting" is just plain false. I did agree on the talk page that the tag was not justified—but that's miles away from actually editing the article and removing the tag. Please show me the edit where I did what you claim I did, or otherwise, please retract your statement, or make it more precise, so as not to impugn my editorial integrity. Thank you. Turgidson (talk) 18:21, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Horlo removed the tag.[9] Then Bandurist removed it. [10]. Then Horlo removed it again.[11]. That looks like tag team reverting to me. You didn't perform any reverts yourself, you just stood on the sidelines and encouraged it. [12] [13] [14]. (Those three posts aren't a bad example of your dismissive attitude to my concerns over the last few days, BTW). But regardless of who exactly it was who did the actual reverting, it's clear I was facing a group of editors determined to keep a tag off the page by sheer weight of numbers. Gatoclass (talk) 19:24, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for setting the record straight. And, I didn't "sit on the sidelines"—I was, and I am, helping write the article (you know, some people do that, from time to time, not just talk). And, did you ever stop to ponder why so many editors disagreed with your tag (and now disagree with your AfD nomination)? Could it be (wonder of wonders!) that they had (and do have) some valid reasons, backed by facts, references, sources, sheer logic, and WP policies? Turgidson (talk) 19:44, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

And thank you once again for the gratuitous sarcasm. Did I ever stop to ponder why so many disagreed with me? Sure I did. And in that regard I couldn't help but notice that all of the editors of the page apart from me appear to be of East European origin, with potential axes to grind against their former Soviet overlords. Just as this AFD is currently accumulating a host of "Keep" votes from Latvians, Lithuanians, Ukrainians, Hungarians and so on.

But the other reason I think I came up against considerable resistance is because my concerns were not merely cosmetic, but structural. That meant potentially rethinking the whole article, and naturally editors who had worked hard on the existing content were reluctant to contemplate that. That's only natural of course - in fact, I can't be sure I wouldn't respond the same way in similar circumstances - but that is not to legitimize the response.

As to the jibe about contributing to the article itself - why would I want to waste my time carefully composing revisions to article content, when the other editors have demonstrated they can't even tolerate the addition of a mere POV tag? Apart from which, since this article has significant structural problems in my view, those problems need to be addressed before one starts adding to content. The strategic plan comes before the tactical maneouvres. Gatoclass (talk) 23:26, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

I find the barb about "all of the editors of the page apart from me appear to be of East European origin" deeply offensive (though, like almost everything you say, devoid of basis in fact). So what if an editor is of East European origin (or for that matter, any other region, or continent)? Would you ipso facto question the value of his or hers contributions, and the good faith behind their editing, based on their country of origin? I find this is in violation of both WP:AGF and basic human decency. As for the boasting about "strategic plan comes before the tactical maneouvres", it needs no further comment from me. Turgidson (talk) 23:40, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

No I wouldn't. But when I come across editors who are apparently having great difficulty reconciling themselves to what seem to me to be fairly straightforward NPOV issues, then naturally I start to wonder why. As for your finding my observation "deeply offensive" - there are offenses given and offenses taken, and I am not responsible for the latter. I mean, would you seriously claim to be completely uninfluenced by your ethnic background or political beliefs? Surely not. Why then would you take offence at my comment? I'm a tad mystified. Gatoclass (talk) 00:19, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Oh, and I'd appreciate it if you stopped misrepresenting my comments. That was not a "boast". Gatoclass (talk) 00:19, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

My two cents, for whatever it's worth these days (what with exchange rates being what they are): The minute someone invokes someone else's ethnicity or nationality as an "explanation" for their opinions, the person doing the invoking loses every shred of credibility he may have ever had in my eyes. I'm sure I'm not the only one who thinks this way. K. Lásztocska^talk 00:58, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

You're right! People's opinions are never influenced by their national loyalties. How could I ever have entertained such an outlandish notion? Thank you for setting me straight. Gatoclass (talk) 01:29, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

No, you misunderstood my point. Of course people's opinions can be influenced by national loyalties, historical events etc. What isn't affected is the validity of those opinions. K. Lásztocska^talk 02:02, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Alright, that Gatoclass guy just lost all of his credibility with that comment. Is he suggesting that anyone who "appears to be of East European origin" should have their opinions discounted? Laughable. Ostap 01:01, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Here's an idea Ostap. Why don't you throw in a straw man? It might save you from having to think. Gatoclass (talk) 01:29, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Please read WP:NPA. Ostap 01:36, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

At least when it comes to instances of Soviet wrongdoing, I guess. Geez, is experience worth nothing in this day and age? K. Lásztocska^talk 01:18, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

• Keep :
  • 1) The subject is topical as the Ukrainian community marks the 75th anniversary of this tragedy all this year.
  • 2) The subject is notable as the Ukrainian government has tabled new laws to make Holodomor denial a crime punishable by Ukrainian law.
  • 3) The subject, although the term {Holodomor denial[ gives us 450 hits in Google English. In Google Ukrainian it gives us 16,800 hits, In Google Russian it gives us 213,000 hits. The number of hits is increasing as the subject becomes more notable.
  • 4) The term was introduced into usage in 2002. It was first used by Prof. James Mace and in the same year also Dr Taras Kuzio here from the University of Toronto. A number of conferences have taken place in 2007 where Holodomor denial was one of the subjects discussed. The definition and the phenomena does not qualify as original research.
    • So why haven't you been able to supply a source which supports this definition? I have supplied several sources above that clearly demonstrate the Ukrainian government uses this term to mean "denial that the famine was a genocide", not simply "denial that there was a famine". But still you insist your presumptive definition must be right. Gatoclass (talk) 18:38, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
      • Here is an English language source for an article specifically named Famine denial in 2002 Famine denial The Ukrainian Weekly, July 14, 2002, No. 28, Vol. LXX
        • Thankyou for further proving my point. That editorial clearly describes the famine as "genocidal" and equates "famine denial" with genocide denial. Which is just the point I have been making. "Holodomor denial" does not merely mean "denial that a famine took place" it means denial that a genocide took place. But whether or not a genocide took place is still a highly contentious issue, even amongst academics, as that very editorial concedes. And yet, here you are, blithely accusing umpteen different groups and individuals in the article of, in effect, genocide denial without for a moment reflecting that this is not a generally agreed-upon, encyclopedic fact, but only one particular POV. Gatoclass (talk) 23:50, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
  • 5) The editor nominating the article for deletion has no prior knowledge or experience in this subject nor language skills which would allow him to gain a greater incite into this topic.Bandurist (talk) 19:34, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
  • 6) The article is not discussing the facts regarding the Holodmor, the number of deaths, materials from Ukraine, or the controversial subject of Genocide and the Holodomor. The article strictly deals with the act of denial of the Holodomor, and contains a list of people and organizations that have denied the existence of the Holodomor over the past 75 years. It also looks into the mechanisms and the implications of denial and its continuation.
  • 7) In the opinion of this editor, the tags were only put there specifically to antagonise the editors and to discredit the subject. All the facts given pertaining to the article have been sourced and disputed claims discussed.
  • 8) The article is too large (and continues to be expanded as new information is added) to condense it into the Holodomor article. The study of Holodomor denial, its workings and reasons, has been the subject of a number of seminars and conferences, and will continue to be a subject in the area of Holodomor studies. Bandurist (talk) 18:05, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

• Keep - the term is current is scholarly and governmental usage, and is a well-documented phenomenon. Moreover, the split from the main article is beneficial because that was getting too long. The nominator should remember that a neutrality dispute arises from third-party disagreements (and he has shown none to demonstrate people questioning the validity of the term), not when a single Wikipedian disputes it and chooses to hold the article hostage with trifling objections. Biruitorul (talk) 18:13, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

• • The term may be "scholarly" in the sense that it is extant and traceable to a reliable source, ie the Ukrainian government. What is not scholarly is to write an article from the Ukrainian government's POV, which is what has been done here. Although in fact you haven't even managed that, since you've mangled the Ukrainian government's own definition of the term and substituted it with a broader one of your own. Gatoclass (talk) 18:38, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
    • I'm not getting it, what's wrong with having the POV of Ukrainian government added to the article? Like already have been pointed out to you, [15] in case you're aware of any other POV's regarding the subject, please feel free to add these to the article. Since according to WP:NPOV in case multiple or conflicting perspectives exist within a topic each should be presented fairly.--Termer (talk) 19:09, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
• Keep - per the other keeps. There is no reason to delete this article. The Holodomor article is too long to include this notable topic, and the article is well referenced. Ostap 19:55, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
• Keep. Article is scholarly, encyclopedic, well-written and thoroughly-researched, and describes a real and documented phenomenon. Those calling for its deletion seem to be the ones motivated by political goals, not the article's authors. K. Lásztocska^talk 20:02, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
• Keep Reading the history of article's formation shows quality contributions from a number of different contributors. Since this is a delicate topic these contributions were well vetted by the wider community of editors especially for POV and original research and the result seems to satisfy the wider community as Wiki valid. Eduvalko (talk) 20:28, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
• Keep Given Soviet suppression of the existence of famine during its course, a topic sufficiently within its own right of an article, and certainly merits being continued. —PētersV (talk) 21:56, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
• Keep per almost everyone here (for my arguments see talk of the article) and relist as DYK.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 23:59, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
• Conditional keep. By conditional, I mean two things. First, the accusation that 'Holodomor Denial' is an original research statement must be disproven in the very first sentence of the article (i.e., which published works cite the term). And second, the scope of the article must be made very clear. I personally believe that the article should not be renamed, but instead, it should be explained where such terminology originates (hopefully, not the Ukrainian government). Bogdan ^що? 00:48, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
• Keep, all arguments I was going to use have already been mentioned. Holodomor denial is yet another example of Communist propaganda, which has never cared for sufferings of ordinary peoples. Holodomor itself is one of the biggest tragedies of humankind in the XX century Tymek (talk) 05:28, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
• Keep, per Bandurist. Notable topic, well referenced and well written article. Martintg (talk) 07:48, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Withdrawing nomination

I think it's probably time to close this nomination. I never expected the nomination to succeed, given the obviously divisive nature of this subject area, but I had hoped to attract a few disinterested parties to join the debate since I appeared to be fighting a lone hand at the article's talk page against what I saw as significant POV issues. It's clear that strategy hasn't succeeded, and I realize now this is not an appropriate venue to try and promote discussion of relatively complex content issues.

Furthermore, having read the comments on the article's talk page above mine, it's clear that I was never in fact alone in my concerns, the very same issues that I raised about this article had been raised by a number of different editors prior to my involvement. So I think the danger I perceived that this article might remain in the hands of just one likeminded group, was probably somewhat exaggerated.

Obviously, I am at fault for not taking more care to first familiarize myself with prior discussion on the talk page, if I had done that I would not have felt the need to initiate this process. So for that omission, I think I should apologize. In closing this AFD then, I would just like to express my thanks to all those who took the time and trouble to comment. But I think it's time to take this debate back to the article's talk page where it really belongs. Regards, Gatoclass (talk) 08:07, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.