Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Heritage Middle School (2nd nomination)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was redirect to Livingston Public Schools. Consensus is that the sources provided by Z22 are not enough to establish notability for this school. Swarm ♠ 22:25, 22 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Heritage Middle School[edit]

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This middle school article with no clear claim to notability should be redirected (again) to Livingston Public Schools. It was previously redirected here in 2007, it still has only routine coverage; the redirect should be restored.. Jacona (talk) 19:02, 15 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Please note that this is the first nomination for this particular school. The previous nomination in 2007 was for another school with the same name located in a different state. The 2007 nomination was concluded with deletion of the article. The current article which is for this school was created in 2009 and it has no relationship to the other school that had its article deleted in 2007. Therefore, this nomination should be considered at its own merits without any relationship to the previous nomination. As for the supporting reasons to keep this article, I will put a separate entry below this comment. Z22 (talk) 23:01, 15 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Keep: As per WP:NSCHOOL contains in that guideline, we can either use general notability guideline or the guideline contained in WP:ORG, or both. This article uses the WP:ORG to establish notability. In the WP:ORG we can either use the primary criteria or alternate criteria. In this case, we use the alternate criteria which the school has to satisfy both:

The scope of their activities is national or international in scale.
Information about the organization and its activities can be verified by multiple, third-party, independent, reliable sources.

When considering the scale, the consideration should be given to "the organization’s longevity, size of membership, major achievements, prominent scandals, or other factors specific to the organization." Those are some of factors that can help demonstrate whether the scope of school activities is national.

Below are the references that can be used to confirm that this school meet both #1 and #2. Each of which uses the major achievement at national scale as the justification to meet #1, and the references are from independent and reliable sources.

FemGineers program of the school was on the '20 to Watch' of 2013 by the National School Boards Association [1]
School was highlighted in the Magna Awards by American School Board Journal [2][3] The awards are the national level. American School Board Journal also included in the document with a "significant coverage" about how the local school board got involved with the development of the technology program and the school, how the lab was funded by the board, how the schools started STEM focus for girls, etc.
Major accomplishments in national competitions: TSA National Conference and Tests of Engineering Aptitude, Mathematics, and Science (TEAMS) National Ranking
The school represented New Jersey region in the National Future City competition and brought home the Region of the Year award.

Additionally, we can also use the general guideline for notability. The article satisfies the "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject". Some of the references in the above demonstrate significant coverage of the school. The following are additional reliable sources that cover some details of the school. All are independent of the subject:

New Jersey School Board Association has the school in the "A+ Ideas, Programs and Practices" in the category of STEM Education with the detailed description of the program at school.
NPR article picked two schools to show examples of how schools in New Jersey was handling sport program cut in the 2010 budget crisis. This school was one of those. The Star-Ledger (largest circulated newspaper in NJ) also had a detailed coverage of the problem and the solution of the school.
The Star-Ledger had an extensive coverage of the school's participation in the 2010 Future City competition.
Classroom Closeup, the 12-time Emmy award-winning TV show, had 4 segments to feature the school programs.

-- Z22 (talk) 05:24, 16 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect again. Restore the redirect and full protect it. There is nothing that makes this school out of the ordinary and there is a popular misconception on Wikipedia that a plethora of sources automatically adds up to notability. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 10:39, 16 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I'm not sure whether it necessary has plethora of sources. But we should also focus the consideration on things that are not ordinary about this school's programs. The school programs are highlighted as a model for other schools by 3 different entities (A+ practices by NJ School Board, only a handful of schools have that; A winner of the national level Magna Awards by American School Board Journal, only dozens of school programs in the US are awarded each year; and 4 programs were featured on the 12 Emmy Award winning 30-minute TV show on innovative projects). I think by these alone made the school to go beyond the "ordinary" gauge. Please discuss whether ordinary schools are highlighted at this level. Z22 (talk) 14:56, 16 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Schools-related deletion discussions. SwisterTwister talk 04:29, 18 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of New Jersey-related deletion discussions. SwisterTwister talk 04:29, 18 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect No major publicity about the school winning the awards/competitions. I'm sure one could find dozens, if not hundreds of MS level competitions, winning any combination of them doesn't make the school notable. They may be "rare", as in not many schools have won them, but that doesn't make something wiki-notable either. It has not been determined which MS competition/award would make a school notable, but it's safe to say that most of them, including the ones mentioned, do not. There are many good middle schools out there, this is just one of them. Rainbow unicorn (talk) 15:56, 19 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I understand your point about winning a combination of arbitrary national awards does not make it notable. And also I just want to point out that notability is nothing to do with which schools are "good", it is just about being notable. My point is that we should really look into them without dismissing too quickly. WP:ORG guideline on notability has it that "A company, corporation, organization, school, team, religion, group, product, or service is notable if it has been the subject of significant coverage in secondary sources. Such sources must be reliable, and independent of the subject." The coverage in particular is about how this school addresses the gender equality issue of the STEM workforce. The American School Board Journal published a review (certainly not just a list of bullet points, etc. so it is a subject of significant coverage by definition) of Heritage Middle School of the finding that girls who participate in STEM competitions in the middle school level will continue to pursue the higher level math and science courses at the high school level, and the school has made the increased percentage of participation of girls in STEM subjects. Also another regional media (regional media is allowed in WP:ORG), Classroom Close-up, featured 4 programs at the school. The guideline also states that the consideration should be given to "any significant or demonstrable effects on culture, society, entertainment, athletics, economies, history, literature, science, or education." Certainly, the review indicates "demonstrable effects" of improving the gender inequality issue in STEM education which has society, science and education implications. Is there any reasons that the given explanation fails the WP:ORG guideline? Z22 (talk) 17:48, 19 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Z22, yes. From the sources you gave above: [4] WP:ORGDEPTH "inclusion in lists of similar organizations" does not establish notability, [5] same as previous, [6] From NJ.com/The Star-Ledger - WP:CLUB "Organizations whose activities are local in scope (e.g., a school or club) can be considered notable if there is substantial verifiable evidence of coverage by reliable independent sources outside the organization's local area.", "NJ.com"=local coverage, [7] [8] [9], the award's website (again, doesn't matter if it's a "national award") verifying the winner is not significant or independent coverage, [10] "inclusion in lists of similar organizations", [11] WP:SIGCOV mentions do not count - it's not specifically about the school, but a general problem for all NJ schools, [12] [13] From NJ.com/The Star-Ledger - more local coverage, [14] From classroomcloseup.org, "Classroom Close-up, NJ is a half-hour television program that features innovative projects in New Jersey public schools." - yet more.

Most, if not all of the sources could also fail for more than one reason. But I'm already almost certain that this school is not wiki-notable. Rainbow unicorn (talk) 14:11, 20 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Here are some points that need clarification, maybe perhaps from other editors too:

You mentioned [15] (page 12) does not pass the WP:ORGDEPTH which has: "Acceptable sources under this criterion include all types of reliable sources except works carrying merely trivial coverage, such as ...". The details that are published about Heritage in the source is not trivial, just a simple list, or a simple paragraph in a list. That coverage is not a meeting times, shopping hours, event schedules, phone number, business directory, inclusion list of similar organizations, etc. I think your standard might go a bit beyond what is suggested on WP:ORGDEPTH.
You said all sources from NJ.com are local. NJ.com contains many publications which include regional and local media. One of those is The Star-Ledger which is a regional newspaper that cover two major metropolitan areas (New York and Philadelphia), both of which are in the top ten US metros.
For other sources that cover New Jersey as a whole, you said they are all local. Again, I need to understand the distinction of local vs. regional from your point of view. Per the link from WP:ORG (which points to Newspaper#Local or regional), local has this definition: "A local newspaper serves a region such as a city, or part of a large city." When I'm reading this, if the scope of a publication is larger than a small to medium size city or larger than a part of a large city, it is considered to be regional. With that definition, a publication that has a scope of a county (a group of usually a dozen of cities) would also be defined as regional. If the scope of a publication covers two large metropolitan areas as I already mentioned, it would be certainly regional by this definition. Z22 (talk) 16:19, 20 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Also forgot to mentioned one other point. You said that NPR segment is considered as WP:SIGCOV mentions which do not count and the NPR publication was not specific about the school. I think you might missed something. If you really listen to that segment, more than 50% of the entire segment went very specific about the school. I just skimmed through the content and got the information like the lost of about $6 million in state aid from the district or 5% of overall budget caused the elimination of Heritage sport program. NPR mentioned the scale of the program that covered many sports at Heritage including softball, soccer, tennis, and lacrosse and interviewed parents on why sports were important to them. The elimination caused 65% of Heritage parents to push for a pay to play system. NPR went on about the administration's proposal for parents to pay up to $400. They talked about the average household income of $135,000 that influenced the decision that it was acceptable to have a pay-to-play system. They also pointed out that not all parents could effort the fees. The administration was considering to exempt families who couldn't afford a fee and considered a fundraising mechanism to make up the money. NPR pointed out that this is not a common solutions for the problems in NJ and it reviewed another school that does not have pay to play as an option. I don't think in a second that this NPR publication was merely "mentioning" of the school. It was with details and data to back NPR's analysis up. I'm pretty sure that it is not just mentioning. It was a main subject of that particular publication. Z22 (talk) 17:26, 20 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Z22, [16] is pretty much a 16 page list of winners, of which, the school doesn't even get a full page. Above I said that according to WP:ORGDEPTH, "inclusion in lists of similar organizations" does not establish notability, you even called it "a simple list, or a simple paragraph in a list.". And it seems to be congratulating "the school board"(guessing that's the Livingston Public Schools board of Education) rather than the school itself. Also, the "Magna Awards" appear to be given out by the ASBJ [17] or at least strongly connected with it(see page 2).
I would not consider The Star-Ledger a regional newspaper. The front page of NJ.com(keyword: "NJ") features articles mainly related to New Jersey. Sure it may cover events happening outside of NJ, like the Pope's visit or the Presidential election, but not without involving NJ: "Meet 5 N.J. residents who are volunteering for Pope Francis' visit to Philadelphia", "Christie dismisses Trump support, says Fiorina was 'rude'. I would consider it a "state newspaper" or New Jersey newspaper, its prime readership being in NJ and having topics mostly involving NJ. Also the "N.J. News In Your Inbox" thing which seems to be on every article page says "From local news to politics to entertainment and sports, the twice daily Right Now eNewsletter has all of the New Jersey news you need!", and if you Google "nj.com" the click-on title says "NJ.com: New Jersey Local News, Breaking News, Sports ...". The definition from Newspaper#Local or regional is not the best(also unsourced). WP:AUD says that coverage must be at least regional and local coverage doesn't count. But what is a "Local or regional" newspaper? I'd rather go for a map like this by the US Census Bureau.
For the NPR segment, sure, it talks about problems that affect the school, but it was only used as an example for "At more affluent schools, parents are stepping in and footing the bill.", so those problems are not specific to that school. I can imagine other sources using others schools as examples. Rainbow unicorn (talk) 20:29, 20 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

To clarify, the half page coverage is not "a simple list, or a simple paragraph in a list". It has enough details of the history and the result of a program of this school. It's not a trivial coverage. Also they might be talking about the board (maybe a paragraph on that) but the rest of it was about the school program.

For the Star Ledger issue, I took the link directly from the WP:ORG guideline ("...by international or national, or at least regional, media is a strong indication of notability"). That definition is right there. We can all invent our own maps. One editor may prefer one type of map to define "regional", another could have interpreted differently. We should take the guideline into consideration. It has a link to the definition for a purpose. You opinion is that if it is a state newspaper, it is not a regional newspaper. I respect your opinion on that, but it just does not fit to what has been described by the direct link provided in the WP:AUD.

For NPR, the notability does not talk about the requirement that the publication has to be about the uniqueness of the subject at all. As long as it is an in-depth coverage of the subject no matter what it is (which could be an example of some similar schools), it is still considered to be good enough in term of the depth of the coverage. All the details of data that I mentioned is very specific to this particular school, not all affluent schools. In fact only sentences that talk about other schools are limited to one or two as the intro. The rest of the story was about these two schools. It is possible (just a guess) that other sources could have used another school as an example. The fact still remains that NPR chose to do this with this particular school for whatever reason and they went into great details about it.

I think we both have a different perspective on the interpretation. I will wait for some other editors to add some thoughts to this. Z22 (talk) 23:16, 20 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Z22, I still have more... Even if you don't think that that's a list, can you deny the ASBJ's close connection to the Magna Awards? First five seconds of this video [18] ""The ASBJ brings you the 2015 Magna Awards" and Magna Awards FAQ page [19] should be enough to prove that it's given out by the ASBJ. And what I said before about "the school board", from the source: "ABOUT THE PROGRAM Living Public Schools created the FemGineers (Female Engineering Club) to...", "The school board adopted... It also adopted...", "THE BOARD'S INVOLVEMENT The school board has invested thousands of dollars in renovating the technology lab at Heritage Middle School(only mention).". Also it seems that the award wasn't even ment for the school, but for the school board/district. On page 2, "Livingston Public Schools, Livington, N.J." is listed as a category 2 winner, same as the title of the section where the school is mentioned.

Instead of relying on a definition from an unsourced sub-section from our imperfect article on newspapers, which isn't even clear to begin with(What is a "Local or regional" newspaper?"), I used a map from the US Census Bureau[20], which clearly defines what they call the regions of the US. According to them, it appears that no state is also a region, and also to other actual sources [21] [22]. Lets see what newspapers actually call themselves: 1)NJ.com(The Star-Ledger does not have its own website, and according to its article its "the largest circulated newspaper in the U.S. state of New Jersey", which implies that its a state newspaper which would generally not be considered regional coverage) pretty much considers themselves to be local news, start with the "N.J. News In Your Inbox" thing above, Google these 2)"the new york times local", says "Breaking news from the New York Region including New York City, Westchester, Long Island, New Jersey and Connecticut.", the "New York Region" is not the state, but is made up of the areas listed after it. In case you say that it is, why would it list a part of New York state, New York City? 3)"new york daily news", says "Find breaking US news, local New York news coverage, sports, entertainment news, celebrity gossip, autos, videos and photos at nydailynews.com.", if state news is regional and not local, why did they call it local? 4)Go to https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/ looks like they consider Maryland, Virginia, as well as D.C. news to be local.

Found some stuff from the NPR source that doesn't count for what you said earlier: "The school(that we selected to interview) is in Livingston, New Jersey, a suburban community an hour and a half from New York City. The school district lost about $6 million in state aid, or roughly 5 percent of its overall budget(also, huge budget if just for one school). Recently it(the school district) announced it would eliminate middle-school sports, until a survey that went out to parents(of the school district) showed 65 percent of them would be willing to help pay for sports themselves.", "According to the census, the median household income in Livingston is about $135,000 a year.", and "The Livingston School District is far from the only district struggling with how to keep sports and other extracurricular activities going.", right after that it goes to the other school that was selected for "local school districts have been forced to eliminate sports for middle schoolers and freshmen, lay off coaches, and reduce the number of games played within a season.", so the school is just an example. Rainbow unicorn (talk) 00:20, 22 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I think we should discuss the question on the local vs. regional media at the guideline talk page then. At least a few editors seem to think that the state paper that covers enough population should be regional. If the territory of 8.9 million people does not count as regional for the purpose of media coverage, I don't know what will. Anyway, you can discuss more there.

Yes, Magna Awards was given out by American School Board Journal, and that violates which part of the guideline?

For your claim that NPR publication was not talking about the school, but about the town, just so you know the school is the only 7th-8th grade middle school in Livingston. So when they talked about the middle school in that publication, it means Heritage Middle School. And when they talked about the census data, should the NPR say something like ...in the area of all residents served by Heritage Middle School is about $135,000 a year." Is there such census established per each territory of each school in the US? The answer is no. I think this is really nitpicking. In any case, since it is the only 7th-8th grade school in Livingston, it is not wrong to use Livingston census data to demonstrate their point. Please don't deny it that more than half of that segment talked specifically about the situation of this particular school. Not any other schools. Z22 (talk) 00:41, 22 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect - Was gonna close as Redirect but we all know where that'd end up!. Anyway redirect per long-standing precedent stated at WP:SCHOOLOUTCOMES. –Davey2010^Talk 23:19, 21 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, now I understand why there is such a resistance to follow the WP:ORG guildeline, because there is an easy mold (WP:SCHOOLOUTCOMES essay) that we all can try to quickly fit it into without a full consideration. So you are saying this will automatically be redirected without having an analysis and thoughtful discussion just because this is a middle school? Z22 (talk) 01:24, 22 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

That shows just how little you appear know about policies, guidelines, and essays, and the differences between them, Z22. OUTCOMES may have an essay banner on it but it is in no way an opinion piece. It is a strict report in one place that documents the way some things are handled. That said, redirect is a policy alternative to deletion and is evidenced by several thousand redirected school articles. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 13:18, 22 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, but still, we should have a thorough discussion with substances to back it up, right? Although I disagree with the other editor, but I really appreciate his/her time in discussion why he/she thinks that way. Z22 (talk) 13:52, 22 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect per longstanding consensus that run-of-the-mill elementary schools (including middle schools) are presumed non-notable. I see nothing that marks this as anything but an ordinary school. Carrite (talk) 21:40, 22 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.