Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Hello Pro Kenshusei

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Pax:Vobiscum (talk) 15:56, 22 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Pro Kenshusei[edit]

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Discussed on Talk:Hello! Project#Merger proposal: Page is mostly BLP trivia with non-notable current members with little to no sources. Page is centered on trainee members (AKA members who have not officially debuted); debuted/departed members already have their own page. Discography can be merged with Hello! Project. lullabying (talk) 20:21, 27 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. The proposal isn't based on any Wikipedia rules or guidelines. The group is notable per WP:MUSICBIO as it has had a single and an album on Japan's national music chart. --Moscow Connection (talk) 21:15, 27 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
By the way, the Japanese Wikipedia article has 337 references. --Moscow Connection (talk) 21:19, 27 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- I checked the Japanese Wikipedia and almost all of their sources are primary sources. You need reliable secondary sources to maintain notability. The rationale for this article existing is similar to a discussion held at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Johnny's Jr. lullabying (talk) 21:21, 27 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  - That's sad, Johnny's Jr. are certainly notable. I don't think anyone who is into Japanese music would say they are unnotable. They fill big arenas. (You can start by checking the Oricon charts. And some Johnny's Jr. boy bands are notable individually.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 02:05, 3 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  - ジャニーズJr.の売上ランキング. --Moscow Connection (talk) 02:16, 3 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  - 関西ジャニーズJr.の売上ランキング, ふぉ～ゆ～の売上ランキング. --Moscow Connection (talk) 02:16, 3 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
As it currently stands Hello Pro Kenshusei is mostly unsourced, with little to no secondary sources, and is full of BLP trivia. Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Korea/Popular culture/Archive 3#Members sections had discussed that ages and birthdates were inappropriate on group articles. Also, as it stands the article currently does not discuss the history of the trainee group nor their works in detail, hence the lack of notability. lullabying (talk) 04:42, 3 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- There was no consensus in that discussion. And only K-pop groups were discussed. So please don't start me on this. (I have other things to do now. I've been planning to return to that issue for two years now, but I'm too busy with other stuff.)
  Btw, birthdates are not trivia. And they can be easily sourced from the official profiles.
  In short... I wonder why someone would want to delete this article. There's nothing in it that can't be checked. And the group is notable per WP:MUSICBIO. -Moscow Connection (talk) 15:32, 3 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  - I also talked to GimmeChoco44 when we worked on Negoto that member birthdates on group articles were not appropriate, so it's not just WikiProject Korea who had this in mind for consensus. I also discussed with Drmies about this as well, and they even also elaborated about it in a similar discussion. The whole page is full of unsourced trivia with no notable activities for the group discussed. lullabying (talk) 15:58, 3 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    The notable activities discussed are the album and the single the group released.
    P.S. Are you calling the two editors to cast their votes? It may look like canvassing. --Moscow Connection (talk)
    - - They pinged me about birthdates, but I think you know my position on that. Drmies (talk) 17:33, 3 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
      - Yes, it was about the birthdates situation. You can also see the discussion on Talk:Negoto#Members' birthdates to see how the discussion played out, since I initially did push for it. However, the focus of this is whether the article should exist at the moment. It's a combination of WP:TOOSOON and that there's too much BLP trivia on members with little to no discussion on the actual group. There's too much WP:UNDUE on the members themselves instead of the group. Plus, there's also a lack of secondary sources. lullabying (talk) 18:08, 3 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Music-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 23:05, 27 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Japan-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 23:06, 27 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Women-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 23:06, 27 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 23:06, 27 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Who would ever think that this kind of completely excessive stuff would be suitable for an encyclopedia? God gave us Wikia for this. Delete. It's cruft, it's trivial, it is not properly verified, it stinks of BLP violations. That the group is notable doesn't mean this is notable. I don't care how many sources the Japanese version has--what matters is that our articles have decent secondary sourcing--not K-pop portals, not gossipy magazines, not industry-driven PR sites. Drmies (talk) 17:16, 3 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

~~*Redirect/Selective Merge~~ to Hello! Project. A brief overview and the recordings that charted are notable enough to mention in the parent article. Other than that, the rest is fancruft.4meter4 (talk) 18:49, 4 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Weak Delete. I can't read the japanese references, but my impression from reading the article is that this is indeed fancruft. And given that this is a WP:BLP, with many of the subject minors, we need to have much better referencing, including in-line citations. -- RoySmith (talk) 19:55, 5 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@RoySmith: How is this a blp? It's about a project/organization that helps develop musical talent, not about the lives of the individuals involved.4meter4 (talk) 00:52, 6 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Well, maybe WP:BLP is an odd way to phrase it, but we've got information about living people, most of whom are minors. We need to be very careful to make sure everything we say is WP:V. We state that somebody failed an audition, somebody else had health issues. Virtually nothing in the entire article is referenced. -- RoySmith (talk) 01:09, 6 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Black Kite (talk) 11:16, 6 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Jovanmilic97 (talk) 16:27, 13 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Keep per WP:MUSICBIO. For the sake of closing this AFD I am changing my vote to keep. Merger may be the best option but that can be discussed on the article's talk page. Additionally, any BLP concerning content can be removed easily. Best.4meter4 (talk) 14:48, 22 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@4meter4: I'd rather we merge this article to Hello! Project, delete this article, or move it to draft space. This is a trainee group, with members that have not officially debuted/contracted to the company and the Japanese Wikipedia is mostly primary sources. They are not active as a group. Johnny's Jr. is on a similar vein. lullabying (talk) 15:53, 22 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.