Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Hearns Crossroads, Delaware

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. —⁠ScottyWong⁠— 23:47, 18 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hearns Crossroads, Delaware[edit]

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Hearns Crossroads, Delaware (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)
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All had original prods removed ten years ago under the mistaken belief that anything in the GNIS is automatically notable. These are named intersections, not notable communities [1]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Geography-related deletion discussions. Reywas92Talk 14:05, 10 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Delaware-related deletion discussions. Reywas92Talk 14:05, 10 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Springfield Crossroads, Delaware, site of St. John's Methodist Church, a church listed on the National Register of Historic Places. Djflem (talk) 17:28, 10 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • The NRHP registration form for the church says its location is "Southeast Corner of Springfield Crossroads". This indicates it's just an intersection, not that it's a community or a notable place. Reywas92Talk 21:28, 10 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      • I disagree. That usage in the NRHP document does not suggest it is not a community. Other usage in the NRHP document suggests it is in fact a community and/or notable place:
        • From the NRHP document: "St. John's Methodist Church and cemetery is located in Indian River Hundred, Sussex County, Delaware on the southeast corner of Springfield Crossroads about three miles southeast of Georgetown. The surrounding area is farm land and has been for over two hundred years. The crossroads consists of the church complex, a house and a small, frame, nineteenth century store." (emphasis added)
        • From the NRHP document: "They meet in private homes and in the school that was located near Springfield Crossroads."
        • From the NRHP document: "An acre of land was purchased at Springfield Crossroads in July of 1852."
        • In the bibliography in the NRHP document it is given as a location of publication: "Moore, J. Everett Jr. A History of St. John's Church. Springfield Crossroad, DE, n.d. Collected manuscript."
--Doncram (talk) 02:08, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Yet none of these say "in" as you would for an actual community like a village or town. Of course you'd be "at" or "near" or "on" an intersection. If there's just one church, one house, and one store, that is not a notable place. It takes more than one family to be a notable community. Reywas92Talk 02:57, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
There was more than one family, suggested by statements of multiple homes. And who do you think attended the school and the church, and who patronized the store, and who was the post office for? The fact that it is documented there were a church, home, and store at the crossroads itself in 1989 suggests to me, given general trends of depopulation in rural areas, that previously there were more homes and other buildings at the crossroads directly, and more nearby as well. User:Reywas92, you clearly disagree about notability of this place; you do not need to repeat yourself again and again by replying to every statement that does not agree with you. It is tedious. --Doncram (talk) 01:34, 28 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Your quotation with emphasis added "The crossroads consists of the church complex, a house and a small, frame, nineteenth century store" is not a statement of multiple homes. The "private homes" are not said to be in (or at) this supposed community, it says the school was "near" the crossroads. Who attended the church? Maybe the folks who lived at the crossroads of Springfield Ave and Park Ave to the west. Who went to the store? Maybe those who lived south on Gravel Hill Road toward where it crosses Zoar Road. Rather tedious that people think that because people lived in the vicinity of an intersection that the intersection is notable and we need an article to state where a church exists. Reywas92Talk 17:59, 28 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Procedural keep I'm seeing quite a few results in the archives about people who were from Springfield Crossroads, indicating that it is a community, as well as being the location of a notable church. Grace Brimmer was a resident of Hearns Crossroads. The others I haven't examined to see if they are actual settlements, but in any event deserve to be nominated individually. ~EDDY (talk/contribs)~ 00:54, 13 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • It literally says "of Hearns Crossroads, Laurel..." and "She was a lifelong Laurel resident." So it was a location of reference or even neighborhood but I don't see automatic notability. Reywas92Talk 02:03, 13 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - All fail WP:GEOLAND and WP:GNG. Sources only use these crossroads as landmarks or to tell us where someone lived; I'm not finding any coverage for the locations themselves. Although NRHP-listed buildings are presumed notable, the places where they're located are not. –dlthewave ☎ 12:53, 14 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep a church listed on the National Register of Historic Places. Lightburst (talk) 01:09, 17 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Yes, we're aware of that, but an intersection does not inherit notability from a building located on it. Reywas92Talk 01:43, 17 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      • See above response about what the NRHP document actually says. It is a place and a community. --Doncram (talk) 02:15, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete all. Intersections that fail WP:GEOLAND and WP:GNG, not much more to add. Nearby buildings and settlements are red herrings, and the keep voters don't address the concerns of the nomination. Avilich (talk) 02:58, 18 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, – filelakeshoe (t / c) 🐱 13:46, 18 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Is the suggestion that Springfield Crossroads, Delaware be redirected to that target?. Not ideal, but acceptable. (Shame about bundled nominations, which make things confusing.)Djflem (talk) 16:18, 20 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Yikes I missed the other items but yes. – The Grid (talk) 12:31, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
No, redirecting to the church doesn't make sense. It is a community which includes the church and more: As of 1989, the date of writing of the NRHP document, "The crossroads consists of the church complex, a house and a small, frame, nineteenth century store." --Doncram (talk) 02:15, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
So one single family lived in this house? I laugh at the idea that this is a notable community then. A locality, whatever, but not worthy of an article. Reywas92Talk 02:57, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect to St. John's Methodist Church (Georgetown, Delaware) for Springfield Crossroads, Delaware, delete the other 3 for clarity. – The Grid (talk) 00:02, 4 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Procedural close: The bundling of these nominations makes it kind of inconvenient to participate here, since it requires four separate searches to be done, and I am not coming to the same conclusions about every article. jp×g 23:37, 22 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Hearns Crossroads: undecided, there are at least a couple articles referring to it as an inhabited place ("Ten Churches Involved". The News Journal. Wilmington, Delaware. 1952-10-06. p. 26. "Mrs. William T. Ward". The Morning News. Wilmington, Delaware. 1970-01-12. p. 5.).
    • McDonalds Crossroads: two results, both in in huge lists of place names, no indication that it was ever inhabited or notable.
    • Springfield Crossroads: a whole lot of results referring it to as an inhabited place, of which I will link only two for the sake of saving space ("Gunner Accidentally Shot". The Morning News. Wilmington, Delaware. 1909-11-16. p. 6. "E. Grace Brittingham". The News Journal. Wilmington, Delaware. 1997-10-11. p. 4.).
    • Whaley Crossroads: at least one article with SIGCOV, being about a guy who lived there and had a sled dog team ("Only sled dog racing team in Del. is winner". The Morning News. Wilmington, Delaware. 1974-01-02. p. 4.) and lots of people are from there ("LeCates Service". The News Journal. Wilmington, Delaware. 1995-02-01. p. 14.).
  • I suppose that, if I had to say something, I'd say to delete McDonalds Crossroads and keep the rest, but there's no way for me to make three separate "keep" arguments at once without turning the page into an impassable wall of text. jp×g 23:51, 22 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: I think the arguments that these require separate nominations is doing closers a bit of a disservice. Four related items isn't that many; closers are quite capable of assessing different outcomes for each.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Vanamonde (Talk) 19:21, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed. Enough of this BS bias that substubs can be mass-produced with zero content or substantive sources but must be discussed one at a time. Reywas92Talk 02:57, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I think that's the ordeal with trying to delete multiple entities at once regardless of how they were created. – The Grid (talk) 23:59, 3 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. Based on usage in the NRHP document (see excerpts above), Springfield Crossroads is a community and a notable place. --Doncram (talk) 02:08, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • And per above, it's risible that one house is a community in the first place. Reywas92Talk 02:57, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      • See my statement above disagreeing that there was just one home, and commenting that I find it tedious and unhelpful in AFD discussions for an editor to make kneejerk replies to every statement disagreeing with them. --Doncram (talk) 01:34, 28 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
info also reiterated in Zelby, Frank R. (1947), Churches of Delaware (PDF), p. 291:Meetings were first held in private homes and later in the Springfield schoolhouse near Springfield Crossroads. Djflem (talk) 07:06, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Cmt Much of the evidence for these being settlements ends up simply being people from or buildings located near those crossroads, like those places described in the Zelby 1947 source or those two people 'of Hearns Crossroads' who are actually from Laurel. The NRHP document does not indicate that Sprigfield Crossroads is a full-fledged community, as per the last reply by the nom way above. As a note to the closer, there may be sufficient consensus for deleting at least the other three -- Hearns, McDonalds and Whaleys -- but, given the weakness of the evidence, a full deletion may likewise not be out of question. Avilich (talk) 19:16, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete/Redirect. All named localities are not populated places where there is sufficient information on which to create an article. Since each of these crossroads may have some minor historical usage, it is quite reasonable to redirect each to the article on the place in which is is located. I'm not familiar with Delaware political divisions, is Hearns Crossroads, Delaware within Laurel or just near Laurel and within Sussex County? It should redirect to whichever is appropriate - with a mention there. But I don't see enough for it to have its own article. Due to Springfield Crossroads, Delaware having a tiny bit more info than the others, that might more appropriately be considered a Merge (again, probably to the county article). MB 04:05, 1 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America1000 00:31, 6 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete/redirect all As per MB. MrsSnoozyTurtle 01:14, 6 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Site of St. John's Methodist Church, but other than that, not notable. Being an intersection where a location on the NRHP does not qualify notability. As an aside, a lot of keep arguments revolve around WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. --PerpetuityGrat (talk) 01:21, 6 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete/redirect all Per Nom. Many of the keep !voters above are labouring under the misunderstanding that any populated or formerly-populated community is notable, but this is resolutely not the case. Only populated places that are legally recognised (e.g., incorporated) get the presumption of notability under WP:GEOLAND. Just uncovering newspaper articles saying that someone came from there (or near there) or that a church (or whatever) is located there does not get this over either WP:GEOLAND or WP:GNG. FOARP (talk) 17:59, 7 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Consensus at Wikipedia:PLACEOUTCOMES and other AFDs would suggest otherwise. Djflem (talk) 18:47, 8 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia:PLACEOUTCOMES states that "Populated place outcomes generally follow WP:GEOLAND, which means that they're usually kept if they either have legal recognition or can be shown to meet GNG through significant coverage" (my emphasis). These sites have neither legal recognition (they are not, e.g., incorporated) nor WP:SIGCOV. PLACEOUTCOMES is anyway a guide as to what the outcome typically is, you are not supposed to lean heavily on it as that is obvious circular reasoning ("we've decided that so that's the way things will be, because we decided that"). Never forget that the basic goal of WP is to write encyclopaedia articles, not dictionary references, not directory entries, not database listings, and not gazetteer entries. — Preceding unsigned comment added by FOARP (talk • contribs) 15:02, 9 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete/redirect all As per MB. Articles are stubs and fail notability, redirects are cheap. Vanteloop (talk) 20:20, 8 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • agree with Delete/redirect all. Caleb Stanford (talk) 00:39, 15 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete all. Street directory information, inferior to google maps. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 11:51, 16 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete all per nom and FOARP. — Alalch Emis (talk) 10:13, 17 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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