Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Hawaii Theological Seminary

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Spartaz ^Humbug! 17:03, 11 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hawaii Theological Seminary[edit]

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There are no significant, independent, reliable secondary sources demonstrating the notability of this institution. Ἀλήθεια 19:13, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

DELETE. As nominator, I would like to speak first to this. From the talk page, here are some searches that came up empty: Peterson's Quick Graduate School Search ([1]), and the College Navigator found at the National Center for Education Statistics ([2]). Additionally, even though the domains are registered, neither urls have webpages: hits.edu and icgs.edu. Ἀλήθεια 19:35, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Possible hoax? Maybe a "paper college," where it exists only on paper. I found some random mentions in Google Books. But nothing in the Carnegie Classification of Institutions of Higher Education [3]. It shouldn't be this hard to confirm the existence of a college. Until we can, delete it, I say.--Blargh29 (talk) 22:58, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. Carnegie Classifications lists this college under its old name. Phil Bridger (talk) 11:16, 5 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Education-related deletion discussions. —Phil Bridger (talk) 11:16, 5 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Christianity-related deletion discussions. —Phil Bridger (talk) 11:16, 5 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Carnegie gives it (under old name) as having enrollment of 57 (Students -?). That makes it hardly notable, but there are a lot of theological colleges on that scale, since they tend only to offer course in theology. Peterkingiron (talk) 16:47, 5 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. My search results suggest that this may be a now-defunct or dormant institution, although even this is not clear. Some details:

I found a tantalizing September 2009 reference in the Honolulu Star-Bulletin to "The Rev. Bong R. Ro, professor of church history and missions at the Hawaii Theological Seminary". [4]

Otherwise, everything is rather old. At http://www.eslhawaii.us is an operative website entitled "English as a Second Language Program: International College and Graduate School Hawaii USA" . This website includes brochures, application information, etc.; however, all the information on this website is dated 2005.

The Wayback Machine has listings for versions of http://icgshawaii.org from September 27, 2002 to April 21, 2008. (The later versions are not available for viewing.)[5] The Wayback Machine also has listings for http://www.hits.edu from May 9, 2006 to July 16, 2008.[6] It appears that the content of this website has changed significantly from version to version. Here is one of the more detailed versions of the page, stating:

"Hawai‘i Theological Seminary—the re-creation of International College & Graduate School—is a member of the Transnational Association of Christian Colleges and Schools (TRACS), having been awarded Reaffirmed status as a Category IV institution by the TRACS Accreditation Commission on September 20, 2000; this status is effective for a period of ten years."

Third party coverage is scanty outside of catalogs and listings. It seems clear that the International College and Graduate Seminary did exist. Here is a mention of the school in a 2006 religion column in the Honolulu Star Bulletin.[7] A search at Newsbank (pay site) turns up a couple dozen other hits, although based on the headlines none appear to be direct coverage.

I am not sure where all this takes us in terms of the article. I am inclined to think that the school's past notability is established, if only marginally, so an article is warranted per WP:NTEMP. However, the current content of the article seems to be inaccurate based on the absence of evidence of the school's current existence. I didn't find any third party reliable source coverage of the school's apparent name and location changes. I did find the following in a 2006 blog post, but I don't think it's WP:RS:

It appears that International College and Graduate School in Honolulu is emerging from a period of chaos with a new identity, new name (Hawai'i Theological Seminary), and new focus. Eric Sorenson and I had lunch yesterday with Randy Furushima, one of the pastors at Wellspring Covenant Church, who is now on the board of regents. It sounds like they're going to put some attention into re-creating the school so that it is more indigenous in focus.[8]

--Arxiloxos (talk) 16:42, 5 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep as a result of the searches given above. Size of seminaries is not a major issue -- Harvard Divinity only has a total enrollment of about 400. Collect (talk) 18:45, 5 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - agree that size doesn't matter, but notability does. If, and when, reliable sources become available, then an article should be recreated. I don't disagree that this school exists (or existed), but it hasn't established notability. I am also not opposed to the creation of an article under the school's old name, provided that it clearly states "ICGS was a...", and that notability is demonstrated with substantial, reliable, third party sources. Hokie RNB 18:55, 5 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Hawaii-related deletion discussions. —Philosopher ^{Let us reason together.} 10:15, 7 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete; It's all rubbish, but that was a substantial search. The school that's the name of article no longer seems to exist, last mentioned for 2007. Every alternate name given in this discussion either also does not exist, or does have a new website/name, but it's a camped commercial website. The closest thing to "right" i could find is this[9], but it's 100% advertising spam if you click anything. If this school does exist in some form under some name and actually has a normal website without promotional links all over the place, I'll reconsider. Otherwise there's no other choice than to delete since we have no sources and no concrete proof it exists in any variation of the name. Can't really have an article on something we can't even locate. ♪ daTheisen (talk) 05:54, 8 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Plenty of reliable sources have been provided to say that this institution existed, both under its current and previous name. Any encyclopedia covers history as well as (or, in fact, better than) current events, so the fact that it doesn't currently have a web site is irrelevant to notability. Phil Bridger (talk) 20:01, 10 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. It evidently exists so is should be kept per the consensus of previous afd discussions, which consider graduate schools to be ipso facto notable. I would not place a great emphasis on the lack of internet information about this school, as certain religious entities may shy away from all things internet. --Pink Bull (talk) 20:44, 10 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I just noticed that I have !voted yet, so keep per the sources available that show that this was a notable seminary, and notability does not expire if a subject ceases to exist. Phil Bridger (talk) 20:59, 10 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. I agree with Phil Bridger's reasoning, and it's clear enough to me that ICGS was a real grad school, thus notable and qualified for an article. I am not sure, however, just what the article should say; specifically, it's not clear to me that there is an adequate reliable source for the proposition that "Hawaii Theological Seminary" "is" (or "was"?) the (or "a"?) successor to ICGS, even though it seems likely that this is true. So I suppose I'd remain open to renaming the article back to International College and Graduate School; I don't see any reason to delete it, though.--Arxiloxos (talk) 21:31, 10 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.