Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Gino and Mark Stocco

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Spartaz Humbug! 19:20, 3 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Gino and Mark Stocco[edit]

Gino and Mark Stocco (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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This is an article that is primarily about an ongoing manhunt. It contains no biographical information about the subjects of the article, except for a very brief mention of some past crimes that have not received significant coverage in the media. The article effectively fails WP:NOTNEWS and WP:BLP1E AussieLegend (✉) 14:22, 26 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. APerson (talk!) 14:55, 26 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Crime-related deletion discussions. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 15:37, 26 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Australia-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 16:26, 26 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. Fails WP:NOTNEWS and WP:CRIME. These alleged criminal acts may have some enduring notability in the future if and when convictions are secured. Until then, this is just a breaking news story. • Gene93k (talk) 17:23, 26 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Snow delete. Per nomination and other rationale stated above. EricSerge (talk) 17:37, 26 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per WP:NOTNEWS and WP:BLP1E. Even though these men have been wanted by the police for years, it is only now (October 2015) that it has become so newsworthy. --Dmol (talk) 20:26, 26 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep: this page should not be seen as a biography of the Stoccos as such, but rather here to discuss the circumstances of their evasion and the police search. WP:BLP1E does not prohibit an article on the event, which is somewhat notable. OSX (talk • contributions) 23:24, 26 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Even if we don't consider this a biography, the event is a breaking news item. Wikipedia is not a newspaper. Lasting effects of this manhunt per WP:EVENT are not established. • Gene93k (talk) 03:25, 27 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
They've been caught, so the manhunt is over. It was a 10 day news flash-in-the-pan and will be forgotten next week. --Dmol (talk) 02:55, 28 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - it will be difficult seeing this having any lasting impact beyond the news cycle. AtHomeIn神戸 (talk) 05:33, 28 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. Now that a body has been found near their hideout, this topic may have taken a more sinister turn. Best to keep for now and see how the matter is resolved. WWGB (talk) 05:53, 28 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep yep, now that they have murdered somebody and been charged with attempted murder of police after 8 years on the run NOT A 10 DAY STORY this page ain't going anywhere — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bomberswarm2 (talk • contribs) 06:47, 28 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
They haven't been directly linked with the murder yet, so it's inappropriate to argue that they've murdered someone. --AussieLegend (✉) 07:15, 28 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
They've now been charged with murder. Hack (talk) 06:16, 29 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
they may be charged but it's a huge BLP issue having someone accused of murder awaiting trial having a WP article about them. LibStar (talk) 02:42, 3 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Hmm, Australia's most wanted criminals are found on a farm they worked on 21 days before, where the owner is found dead of a violent death, after he was reported missing 20 days prior. You seriously think he's innocent?— Preceding unsigned comment added by Bomberswarm2 (talk • contribs) 01:34, 29 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
That's not the point. A person is presumed innocent until proven guilty. Please see WP:BLPCRIME. They're also not "Australia's most wanted criminals", they are just the most newsworthy at the moment. There are others on the list. --AussieLegend (✉) 08:37, 29 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep A remote property near Elong Elong was the final hideout for father-and-son fugitives, Gino and Mark Stocco who were arrested by the NSW Police on 28 October 2015 after eight years on the run.AWHS (talk) 11:18, 28 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see how the quoted text justifies a keep vote. --AussieLegend (✉) 08:28, 29 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Front page on almost every paper in Australia today, five page spread in the Sydney paper today, I think the circumstances that initially suggested an AfD have changed in the last week. The Sydney Morning Herald called it 'infamous' today and described the men as 'two of Australia's most wanted men'. Arguably the biggest crime story in years in Australia. Strong keep from me.AWHS (talk) 10:50, 29 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Prior to these two men failing to pay for petrol, virtually nothing was known of them. They only appeared in the news because they shot at police who were looking for them because of that. This is a BLP, but it doesn't really cover anything that didn't stem from the manhunt. It's a clear breach of BLP1E. --AussieLegend (✉) 12:59, 29 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Prior to Man Monis doing what he did, virtually nothing was known of him either. Things have changed now, and the duo are now notable. OSX (talk • contributions) 23:20, 29 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Man Monis' notability was established well before the seige.[1] I suggest you read WP:BLP1E. Any notability stems from a single event, that event being that they failed to pay for petrol. As a result of that event they were hunted by police and then fired weapons at police, which is what catapulted them into the news. Had they paid for the petrol, we probably still wouldn't know anything about them. Not every criminal gets an article. Take for example Ivan Milat, who has had significantly more courage than this pair, but doesn't have an article. --AussieLegend (✉) 07:25, 30 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Not really, Man Monis had limited media coverage before the siege. The Stoccos also had limited media coverage as well (at least as early as 2007). The Stoccos became well known not after for failing to pay for petrol, but for shooting at police in Wagga on October 16 (at least a week before failing to pay for fuel at Gundagai). Likewise, Man Monis became famous at the time of the siege. Ivan Milat does not need an article as there is an article about the event. The Stoccos page is really about the police manhunt. Change the name if you wish, but the page should not be viewed strictly as a biography. OSX (talk • contributions) 08:21, 30 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It's not even the biggest crime story of the week. That would be Deaths of Karlie Pearce-Stevenson and Khandalyce Pearce. --Scott Davis Talk 13:32, 31 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment/Question. If this was in the United States, the suspects might qualify for inclusion if they were on the FBI Ten Most Wanted Fugitives list. Is there an equivalent in Australia and were these men on it? - Location (talk) 02:12, 29 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Gino (not Mark) was added "to the national most wanted list in mid-August" 2015 [2]. OSX (talk • contributions) 06:54, 29 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The actual quote from that news article was Queensland Police only added Gino to the national most wanted list in mid-August. That was despite being on the run for 8 years. The sentence prior to that was the pair was not on the NSW most wanted list. The national most wanted list here is not like the FBI's 10 most wanted. These are people who were virtually unknown until they failed to pay for petrol. --AussieLegend (✉) 08:33, 29 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. There is nothing remarkable about this pair. Its not notable when some delinquents go on a crime spree and the police do their job. - Shiftchange (talk) 08:25, 30 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete based on its current state. The article is plenty long enough to contain basic details like what the original crimes were, how they got out of jail to have been shooting at police, a few sentences on Mark's life, ages, how they evaded capture for so long etc. It is possible that a compelling article could be written one day, but this is not it, and the fact that many basic facts are missing from an article this long suggests that reliable references are not (yet) available so the article is WP:TOOSOON. It is only an article about one minor event that got a lot of social media attention for political reasons. --Scott Davis Talk 13:32, 31 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • delete WP:NOTNEWS. the spike in news coverage until their capture just proves this is a news event. LibStar (talk) 14:15, 31 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep They are murders. End of story. No more mention of deletion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bomberswarm2 (talk • contribs) 00:06, 1 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per nom and especially WP:BLPCRIME. The only substantial coverage these people have received has been for a single event, their attempt to avoid arrest. If further and broader coverage develops an article may be warranted. Nick-D (talk) 10:49, 1 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep and improve. This was an eight year crime spree of fraud, arson, robbery, vandalism and assaults - apart from murders. Notable enough. Coverage in Sydney Morning Herald 31 October reported the Stoccos on 35 charges and predicted 'more to come'. The murder victim was also linked to the Calabrian mafia and a marijuana cultivation syndicate, which may prove to be another angle. Pallas Blade (talk) 12:15, 1 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Please review Wikipedia's notability criteria: notability is generated by sustained coverage, and not a single burst of stories. This is especially the case for articles on living people. You are also making the mistake of claiming that these people are guilty of things which they have currently only been charged for. Nick-D (talk) 20:37, 1 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • 99% of the criminals that have pages here haven't been mentioned in the media for years. You want to use that stupid logic, let's delete 4.9 million other articles that haven't appeared in the media in the past 7 days. WWII? Gone. Ivan Milat? Gone. Moon landing? Gone. Thanks. Bomberswarm2 (talk) 10:05, 3 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is not a reason for keeping. LibStar (talk) 10:26, 3 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      • A week after their capture and the story has disappeared from the news. It was always a media rush, and except for occasional mentions in future for court appearances, it has gone stale now. This was not an 8 years story as some have said, as for most of that time they lived out of sight. As I predicted, they will be forgotten. As for the number of charges, that's not unusual. Any short burst of criminal activity will quickly add dozens of charges to the person involved. --Dmol (talk) 03:19, 3 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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