Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ghosts in Spanish-speaking cultures

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Draftify. People here broadly agree that the topic is possibly (or in the view of some probably) notable, but that the current content is terrible: an unsourced aggregation of ghost stories presented mostly as facts. On that basis, the outcome most consistent with this discussion and the core policies of WP:V and WP:NOR is draftification until the content is substantially improved. Sandstein 15:20, 29 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Ghosts in Spanish-speaking cultures[edit]

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Not only is this almost entirely unsourced, and comprised of anecdotal WP:FRINGE information, but I don't believe this actually meets the WP:GNG as a topic. This is not about stories or beliefs in a particular culture or region, but an overly broad topic that covers multiple countries, with their own distinct cultures, across three continents. While there are certainly sources to be found about the beliefs in ghosts in the individual countries included, I can find no actual reliable sources that discuss this overall concept of ghosts in "spanish-speaking" cultures as a singular topic. Rorshacma (talk) 06:06, 3 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Spain-related deletion discussions. Rorshacma (talk) 06:06, 3 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Argentina-related deletion discussions. Rorshacma (talk) 06:06, 3 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Mexico-related deletion discussions. Rorshacma (talk) 06:06, 3 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Peru-related deletion discussions. Rorshacma (talk) 06:06, 3 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Venezuela-related deletion discussions. Rorshacma (talk) 06:06, 3 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
To save others the time, I tracked down what was translated. It was es:Special:Permalink/35850210#En Argentina and some of the following sections. Uncle G (talk) 11:27, 3 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. The article is in terrible shape, almost entirely unsourced, but sources could be found. The question is not what it is, but what it could become. See Ghosts in Mexican culture and List of reportedly haunted locations in Colombia for articles that could be mined for sourced material. Presumably there are ghost stories and beliefs that are shared among the various Spanish cultures. A search on fantasma would find them. An overview like this (with sources added) is useful, and can hold material for countries that do not yet have a complete article, such as Ghosts in Peruvian culture. Yes, ghost stories are by their nature fringe theories, but fringe theories are legitimate subjects when treated for what they are. Aymatth2 (talk) 12:57, 3 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I pointed out that specific countries/cultures are easily sourceable, as evidenced by the Ghosts in Mexican culture article. The issue is that there needs to be actual reliable sources that discuss the overall broad topic of ghost beliefs in all "Spanish-speaking cultures". Taking sources that just discuss one specific country/culture/region, and then combining them to make this article, is pure WP:SYNTH. I would have advocated to WP:SPLIT this into smaller articles on the specific cultures like the aforementioned Mexico article, but the fact that this is almost entirely unsourced means that there is no actual material that would be suitable for preserving for those smaller articles. Rorshacma (talk) 16:13, 3 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- It would be strange indeed if no academic had discussed the evolution of ghost stories from their roots in pre-Christian Spain to their flowering in the American colonies, where they were enriched by indigenous beliefs, comparing and contrasting variants in different regions. This is surely a valid topic. Aymatth2 (talk) 17:13, 3 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 05:22, 10 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Rorshacma, for clarity, and to avoid us arguing about two separate things, are you basically saying that the subject is quite possibly notable, but the current article should be deleted on TNT grounds that it really needs a bottom-up, start-from-scratch re-write, none of the existing material being of any use? Elemimele (talk) 06:55, 10 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Elemimele - I'm basically actually arguing that the topic, as presented, is too broad to pass the WP:GNG, as I have not been able to find any sources that discuss the overall topic of ghosts in all "Spanish-speaking cultures" (as in, any one source that discusses ghosts in the Spanish-speaking regions in North America, South America, and Europe together as one subject). The individual regions listed in the article are sourceable, but combining them to make one "mega topic" is WP:SYNTH unless reliable sources that discuss the overall topic can be found. Don't get me wrong, I think the current article would be WP:TNTable regardless due to its current state, but that fact is somewhat of a moot point as my main issue is with the topic as a whole. Rorshacma (talk) 16:00, 10 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

A quick search in Google Books on fantasmas en america latina turned up this page which discusses ghosts in Latin America such as La Llorona, of 10th century Andalusian origin. This book is a collection of traditional stories and beliefs concerning appartions, ghosts, goblins etc. in Hispanic America, collected from different cultures. There are surely many more examples. It is a rich topic. Aymatth2 (talk) 18:04, 10 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Rorshacma thanks for the helpful clarification. On that basis, I am sitting on the fence. I would be sympathetic to a TNT deletion of the current article, but I think the subject may be genuine. It seems very likely that the Spanish colonists would have taken their folk-tales and cultures with them across the globe, and as a result there would be links across Spanish-speaking cultures today, and I'd imagine someone will have written about it. I'm not finding great sources by Googling (for example this completely inappropriate source [1] says it, but it's basically one person's blog-opinion). The article desperately needs sources; if I'm finding rubbish ones, I hope that someone with better books or google-skills will be able to find good ones. Elemimele (talk) 06:58, 11 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

To roughly paraphrase Patricio Rivera Olguín (2013), Fantasmas del norte: Imaginarios, identidad y memoria, RIL Editores, p. 22,

... In its primary stage, society searches for the origin of these phenomena and explains them from tragic deaths that cut off a life before it has finished its natural course. Thus classic ghostly figures emerge, such as La Llorona (originally from Andalusia during the 10th century war against the Moors), adapted to local characteristics and widely reproduced in different places in Latin America.
La Llorona is known in many Latin American towns, with an origin that dates back to the times of the Conquest. Various narratives tell about the relationship between an indigenous woman and a Spanish man, from which a son or daughter is born who is rejected by the family of the mother, who is forced to kill the child. The stories generally state that she drowns her child in a river and then weeps forever because of the pain it causes her.
Ghosts in Latin America are conceived around the concept of the soul in pain, which represents the soul or spirit of a deceased who wanders in sorrow or remains in the places where he previously lived. Sometimes they announce burials or treasures, which prevent them from resting if they are not discovered ...

Other books that may be useful, from a quick scan:

Francisco Franco Gaterol (2006), "Animas, fantasmas y capillas. Representaciones de la muerte en Venezuela y Latinoamérica (exploración etnológica e histórica)", Revista Presente y Pasado
Sonia Montecinos (2003), "Mitos de Chile: Diccionario de seres, magias y encantos", Biblioteca del Bicentenario, Editorial Sudamericana
Sebastiaan Faber (2008), "Fantasmas hispanistas y otros retos transatlánticos", in Mabel Moraña (ed.), Cultura y cambio social en América Latina, Iberoamericana Editorial
Silvia Espinal; Óscar Abenójar; José Manuel Pedrosa (2008), Cuentos y leyendas inmigrantes: duendes, fantasmas, brujas, diablos, santos, bandidos y otros seres inquietos e inquietantes de Hispanoamérica y de algún misterioso lugar más : relatos, PdC
Charlotte H. Gartenberg (2018), Haunted Stories, Haunted Selves: Ghosts in Latin American Jewish Literature, City University of New York
Enrique Ajuria Ibarra (2017), "The Latin American Ghost Story", in Scott Brewster; Luke Thurston (eds.), The Routledge Handbook to the Ghost Story, Routledge
Lisa Morton (2015), "La Llorona and Dreamtime: Ghosts in Latin America and the Southern Hemisphere", Ghosts: A Haunted History, Reaktion Books
Juliana Martínez (2020), Haunting Without Ghosts: Spectral Realism in Colombian Literature, Film, and Art, University of Texas Press

There are many other potential sources. Aymatth2 (talk) 13:54, 11 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 09:07, 18 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Weak keep This would seem to pass GNG. My concern is that perhaps joining Hispanoamerican and Spanish ghost folklore/culture in one page is not necessarily warranted by the way the sources organise the material. Boynamedsue (talk) 07:12, 19 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Draftify and give the editors some time to update it. Potentially notable if there is coverage. But currently no effective sources. Draft is best place for it. scope_creep^Talk 14:33, 26 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.