Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Fruit pudding

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. The sourcing of the article has been improved substantially since nomination and I now see a consensus to 'keep'. Just Chilling (talk) 16:53, 24 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Fruit pudding[edit]

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Fruit pudding (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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I don't this article pass WP:GNG. Most of the links are to shops selling the product and a few recipes.

Unfortunately, there are no guidelines for food notability. Using the WP:GNG, I think this article fails to be notable due to the lack of discussion of the food item. Tyw7 (🗣️ Talk) — If (reply) then (ping me) 22:56, 16 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Food and drink-related deletion discussions. Tyw7 (🗣️ Talk) — If (reply) then (ping me) 22:56, 16 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Scotland-related deletion discussions. Tyw7 (🗣️ Talk) — If (reply) then (ping me) 22:56, 16 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. In its current state the article is poor and inadequately referenced. However, the innumerable ghits for the Scottish butchers and shops (even posh ones like House of Bruar) who offer fruit pudding as one of their wares may not be ideal or impartial sources but amply indicate the widespread availability of the stuff. It's definitely a thing, it's a commonplace one and a distinctive inclusion in the Scottish version of the breakfast fry-up. It's not the kind of thing that would be made in the home, so unlikely to be in a recipe book (aside from ones that say "stick everything in a frying pan"). There is a tangential mention of it here in the amply reliable source, the Dictionary of the Scots Language (though bizarrely the word "slice" is misspelled in the header). The scores of butcher and shop sites may be numerous though primary but this (and other) reviews in the Scotsman is secondary coverage which notes the existence of the stuff without feeling the need to explain what it is. I've also found mention in The Herald (Haggis Brand to remain in Scotland) but via PressReader so am unsure how to copy the link. Improve the article but definitely keep it. Mutt Lunker (talk) 00:56, 17 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Again, just mentions but from the Guardian, this and this. Mutt Lunker (talk) 01:13, 17 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • There is ISBN 9781613122112 p. 71, but it only supports a stub. Uncle G (talk) 07:32, 17 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've added several news and book references to the article now, most solidly reliable sources, one to a tabloid though. FWIW, the Herald article I referred to is here. @Uncle G:, what does your source say? @Tyw7:, are you satisfied that the GNG has been fulfilled now? Mutt Lunker (talk) 11:45, 17 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • Mutt Lunker, I think it's better. But the problem is there's no general guidelines for food. --Tyw7 (🗣️ Talk) — If (reply) then (ping me) 13:03, 17 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
      • So you agree it now demonstrably fulfils the GNG criteria? In which case, the lack of specific guidelines for food may be an omission worth addressing but wouldn't have a bearing on this individual discussion. Ping: @Tyw7: Mutt Lunker (talk) 13:20, 17 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
        • Mutt Lunker, it's hard to gauge notability with such a broad topic but I had a look at a couple of sources and to me it seem they are passing mentions. --Tyw7 (🗣️ Talk) — If (reply) then (ping me) 13:54, 17 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
        • Question Mutt Lunker, I am trying to look through the sources, and having difficulty finding which article in The Herald refers to fruit pudding. Could you tell me the title of the article, please? I would also suggest referencing it by the article title, author, date and the name of the paper, rather than just "PressReader.com - Your favorite newspapers and magazines" (if it was you who added it - perhaps it wasn't), as PressReader is just a platform for digital copies of a variety of newspapers and magazines, some reliable, some not. RebeccaGreen (talk) 15:32, 17 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
          • Mentioned above, though I know that it's difficult to track, that the title is "Haggis Brand to Remain in Scotland" and that I wasn't sure how to deal with the link last night. Initially I couldn't extract a link to copy at all from PressReader; what I've added now at least links to the edition of the paper, though you need to scroll a fair bit to the right until you get to the article. The auto-generated title for the ref is not very helpful, I'll grant you. By all means improve the link and title if you can. Mutt Lunker (talk) 16:05, 17 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
          • Found a link to the paper itself so this is now addressed. Mutt Lunker (talk) 16:41, 17 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep This dish clearly exists – see BBC, for example. The title is quite generic as there are other types of fruit pudding such as the summer fruit pudding. Perhaps this might be treated as a broad topic with this particular recipe linking to Full_breakfast#Scotland. Anyway, that's all a matter of ordinary editing and we should build on the current version rather than deleting it, per WP:PRESERVE. Andrew D. (talk) 13:34, 17 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • Andrew Davidson, I was not disputing the fact that the item exists. In fact WP:ITEXISTS is the weakest form of argument. That said, when doing a before, my first page was full of places to buy said object and the second page was of receipes. I personally think these are not the significant coverage that WP:GNG requires. --Tyw7 (🗣️ Talk) — If (reply) then (ping me) 14:02, 17 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • These very well may not be but the references have since been augmented and consist of substantially more than places to buy it or recipes. That said, the addition of reliably sourced recipes would benefit the article; aside from lists of ingredients, I didn't come up with much in that regard. What did you find @Tyw7:? Mutt Lunker (talk) 14:12, 17 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I am looking through results for "fruit pudding" in digitised Scottish newspapers from about 1850-1960 (and a few later papers) on the British Newspaper Archive. While I have found some recipes for a fruit pudding that seems to be similar to the one described in this WP article, it is only one of many kinds of fruit pudding. Some were made with fresh fruit, some with tinned or soaked dry fruit; some had a suet crust holding the fruit (like a meat pie), some were flat with a layer of batter first, and a layer of fruit on top, which sank to the bottom during cooking; some were made of tapioca mixed with preserved fruit; some were cold with bread lining the mould, in other words, summer fruit pudding. For the fruit puddings that seem to be like this one, there are recipes with egg and without. They involved boiling the pudding in a cloth for 3 hours or steaming it in a basin for 4 hours (eggless), or steaming it in a basin for 2 hours (with egg). This may well be why this type of fruit pudding has become a commercially made product! (They don't seem to be like Christmas pudding, which of course is also boiled or steamed for a long time, and has lots of fruit in it .... will compare recipes.)

    However, as far as an encyclopaedia entry goes, these sources don't really help support an article just about one type of fruit pudding in Scotland. And the picture has the caption "Traditional Scottish Fruit Pudding", but all the sources are from the 2000s ..... I will try to look for more sources. RebeccaGreen (talk) 15:58, 17 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • Although now I think perhaps the boiled and steamed fruit pudding recipes I found were more like Clootie dumpling - which comes up on a Google Book Search for ' "fruit pudding" Scotland' in all the Rough Guides to Scotland .....
    • You beat me to it. Sounds like you are on the track of generic fruit puddings, largely dessert ones and largely the one referred to as clootie dumpling (broadly similar to Christmas pudding and commonly made in the home) but not the one referred to as "fruit pudding". Egg wouldn't feature in this one; there's a lot of overlap in ingredients but this one is more sausage-like, rather than dessert or cake-like. Mutt Lunker (talk) 16:09, 17 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
      • I am just searching for "fruit pudding", which is the title of this article. The recipe titles are just "Fruit pudding" (often), or "Cold fruit pudding", "fruit pudding without eggs", "delicious fruit pudding", etc. For many years in Scotland, it seems that the term could refer to any kind of fruit pudding, which leads me to wonder how long the term has referred mainly to the kind fried for breakfast. RebeccaGreen (talk) 16:34, 17 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
        • That's the difficulty with a search for a term which is used both generically and specifically. I'd imagine you'd get similar results for "pie" in Scottish cookbooks but the one understood to be the default is specifically one type (what's known elsewhere as a Scotch pie). I'd hazard that few of these fruit puddings are particularly well known and that none would be widely envisaged as default fruit pudding. I can remember it as a child in the 70s, though I couldn't swear for certain as to what it was called. The reference to Alex Harvey can be referring to a date no later than 1982, though the book was written later. Mutt Lunker (talk) 16:57, 17 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
        • RebeccaGreen, is the article title too vague then? --Tyw7 (🗣️ Talk) — If (reply) then (ping me) 16:46, 17 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
          • It's the name by which the item is referred. We're not talking about one of many desserts with fruit in them that could be referred to as a fruit pudding, we're talking about the thing known as "fruit pudding". Mutt Lunker (talk) 17:03, 17 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
            • Mutt Lunker, searching for "fruit pudding scottish" only brought up links to shops. --Tyw7 (🗣️ Talk) — If (reply) then (ping me) 17:05, 17 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
              • I'm not sure what your point is and it is evident that others have been more successful in their searching for refs, making discussion of your original unfruitful searches seem rather redundant. Mutt Lunker (talk) 17:10, 17 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
              • What I have been trying to do is look for evidence that this is a default term for this particular kind of pudding, and what I have found that many things were called "fruit pudding" in Scottish newspapers. In the historic papers, there is no mention of "fruit pudding" as part of a breakfast dish. I don't know how long it has had this meaning (if indeed it is the main current meaning). To have an article, we need sources writing about the topic - and I agree, most of the sources currently in the article are passing mentions only. They verify that it exists, and some mention some of its ingredients, but they do not constitute significant coverage. I think a WP:BROAD article may be better, unless there is evidence of significant coverage of this type of "fruit pudding". RebeccaGreen (talk) 17:23, 17 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
                • Tyw7, if you are searching for "fruit pudding scottish" in inverted commas, in that order, I doubt you will find much at all. "scottish fruit pudding", perhaps - it's a more likely word order, but I have been searching for "fruit pudding" in inverted commas, plus Scotland, or Scottish, or Scots, as that word may well occur elsewhere in the source. RebeccaGreen (talk) 17:23, 17 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
                  • RebeccaGreen, without the quotation marks. --Tyw7 (🗣️ Talk) — If (reply) then (ping me) 17:30, 17 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
                    • Then you will find anything that has the words fruit, pudding and Scottish in it, and promoted websites will come at the top of the search results. It's usually more effective to use more targeted search terms. RebeccaGreen (talk) 17:37, 17 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

In regard to this AFD discussion though, are we in agreement that deletion is not an appropriate course and that we should move to speedy keep? The aspects that the discussion has turned to can be addressed on the article talk page. Mutt Lunker (talk) 17:33, 17 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • No, I don't think so. The only Keep arguments so far are WP:ITEXISTS, and sources which have only passing mentions of this kind of fruit pudding. If the article is expanded during the AfD to cover a WP:BROAD range of fruit puddings, with this as one type, or if someone finds significant coverage, that might be a reason to keep it. RebeccaGreen (talk) 17:39, 17 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • Passing or otherwise, the multiple mentions in reliable sources are a world away from the kind of examples given under WP:ITEXISTS. It plainly more than just exists in obscurity. Mutt Lunker (talk) 17:57, 17 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
      • Mutt Lunker, currently the only notability guidelines that apply to food is GNG, and that doesn't allow notability just because something exist unlike other guidelines. --Tyw7 (🗣️ Talk) — If (reply) then (ping me) 17:59, 17 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
        • Have you read my last post? In fact, have you read WP:ITEXISTS? And you don't have to keep pinging me, this is on my Watchlist. Mutt Lunker (talk) 18:02, 17 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
          • Whoops. That's the default setting of the reply tool I'm using.

            And yes I did. GNG requires significant coverage not just passing mentions.

            However, some subjects have looser notability criterias and will include items if, for example, an entertainer has an award from a major organization like the academies. --Tyw7 (🗣️ Talk) — If (reply) then (ping me) 18:10, 17 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • If it helps: ISBN 9780313327988 p.136 is a list of the components of a "full" English/Scottish/Welsh/Irish breakfast, and it calls this "fruity pudding". Uncle G (talk) 23:23, 17 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. One reference stood out for me - Maw Broon's Cookbook. Maw Broon is an extremely well-known fictional Scottish cook, and that recipe is very likely to be authentic. Narky Blert (talk) 11:15, 18 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Narky Blert, https://www.amazon.co.uk/Maw-Broons-Cookbook-Every-Special/dp/1902407458
    the book's description says "Launched in 1936 in the "Sunday Post" in Scotland, The Broons are undoubtedly Scotland's first family - the Nation's favourites - with a readership covering all generations. The Broons 'annual' sells over 100,000 copies. This is a facsimile of Maw Broon's very own cookbook, which we borrowed from the sideboard at No. 10 Glebe Street - first made for her by her mother-in-law when 'Maw' married 'Paw', and added-to over the years with recipes for every day and special days, from friends and neighbours and others that simply caught Maw's eye in "The Sunday Post", or cut-out of the backof a flour bag. These are the very recipes that became the favourite dishes of the whole extended family - Maw and Paw, Granpaw, Daphne, Horace, Joe, Maggie, Hen, the Twins and 'the bairn'.The strip itself is still hugely popular, with the "Sunday Post" having a circulation of over 1,000,000 copies every week, and there are some examples of the strip from years gone by that Maw must have clipped into her Cookbook- perhaps as reminders of special days. We've just left the 'bits and pieces' that you find tucked into a cookbook, exactly as we found them - stains and all.
    "Maw Broon's Cookbook" is published at a time when nostalgia items are extremely popular, and although obviously firm favourites in Scotland, there will be interest nationwide, with support and endorsement from celebrity names - Gordon Ramsay, Lorraine Kelly, Ewan McGregor to name a few. The BBC's Robbie Shepherd and Tom Morton will lend a hand too! There will be promotion in DC Thomson's portfolio of newspapers and magazines - including "The Sunday Post", "The Courier", "The Scots Magazine", and "The People's Friend"."
    Also, the first review says "Imaginative, clever, mock-facsimile of a Scottish family cookbook. One for both keen back to basics cooks and Broons fans." --Tyw7 (🗣️ Talk) — If (reply) then (ping me) 11:44, 18 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I'm unclear as to the intent of the post immediately above but in case there is any confusion, it is only the stated author of the book who is fictional; the book is real and the contents are highly authentic. Mutt Lunker (talk) 11:59, 18 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. To note, the ref is to fruit pudding's inclusion in a list of items for a Scottish breakfast, as opposed to a recipe for the making of fruit pudding. That this particular book includes it does lend authority to it being a notably typical inclusion in such a breakfast Mutt Lunker (talk) 11:43, 18 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Mutt Lunker, well the book is fictional and, in my eyes, does not lend to much credibility. For all we know, it's a parody of what a stereotypical Scot has for breakfast. --Tyw7 (🗣️ Talk) — If (reply) then (ping me) 12:04, 18 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The book is not fictional, only the byline. Mutt Lunker (talk) 12:23, 18 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment For the avoidance of any doubtMaw Broon's Cookbook is certainly not a work of fiction. It is a highly successful book of Scottish recipes. The conceit (for marketing and tie-in purposes) is that it is supposed to be compiled by the fictional Maw Broon from the Broons, but this does not diminish it as a source. Dunarc (talk) 19:27, 19 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per WP:HEY. Bearian (talk) 22:02, 18 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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