Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Frozen Tide

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Delete Mandsford 21:39, 5 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Frozen Tide[edit]

Frozen Tide (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log) • Afd statistics
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Non-notable athletic club at a university, started relatively recently (2005) and no independent claim of notability (other than association with the university). Also, The article does not contain any reliable sources that are independent from the subject. The subject appears to be purely of local/community interest and does not appear to qualify under WP:NOTE. Cquan (after the beep...) 03:56, 28 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have added a notable claim for the role that the Frozen Tide has played in the creation of the SECHC with sources such as nbcsports.com. I believe that they are a reliable source of information, and that this would certainly counter the argument that the subject is "purely of local/community interest". Bama Hockey is regularly covered in media across the south, and by hockeyyall.com. They are building a program of national interest with players and fans across the country (See, http://hockeyyall.com/?p=1641) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.230.145.89 (talk) 05:02, 28 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

As a note, the coverage on nbcsports is for SECHC, not Frozen Tide, though they are mentioned. However, there should be "significant coverage in reliable sources" and "Significant coverage" means that sources address the subject directly in detail per WP:NOTE. As for hockeyyall.com, that is a blog and blogs are generally not reliable sources. Cquan (after the beep...) 05:26, 28 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Also as a note, there seems to be a conflict of interest in the article's creation as the author User:Jonholston appears to be on the 2010 roster of the club, see [1]. Cquan (after the beep...) 05:32, 28 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not going to lawyer with you, I spent 3 years of law school and 7 years in the practice and you are the reason that no sane person would want to remain a lawyer. Things to consider, 1) ACHA hockey is beyond the normal level of "club" sports, there are international all-star teams that compete, including at the World University Games. At many schools, including Alabama, ACHA hockey is a top 10 spectator sport garnering more attention than many varsity sports. The ACHA is a perfectly acceptable league covered by wikipedia, and is nationally followed through blogs, message boards, and media. Any team competing at the highest levels of ACHA is followed by junior hockey players, high school players, and fans across the country. Numerous ACHA players have gone on to play professional hockey across the world, this is not "generally" true of club sports. 2) This is a work in progress and more things will be added as others that are interested work to build this page. 3) Your cite that blogs are "generally" not reliable seems to mean that blogs can be reliable. Maybe you should look into whether it is or not reliable, or better yet you could go to NYC and see if there is a Bama Hockey sticker on one of the firetrucks yourself. If the honus is on us to prove that it is reliable, then we say other than a few minor typos each week (which every newspaper in the world has), this blog covers college hockey from pennsylvania to florida to arkansas and back with tremendous accuracy. The blogger compiles scores on a daily basis when games are played, provides a player of the week award, and has 2 to 3 posts about programs from across the south each week. He is the source of information about ACHA hockey for those that are interested. 4) The SECHC did not exist when NBCsports carried that particular article, and one and only one organization paid for, hosted, and ran the event in coverage, the Frozen Tide. The event was owned by and the only beneficiary of the event was the Frozen Tide. Good luck with your life, I will continue to help build this page, and will no longer respond to your snarky, uninformed comments and misplaced energy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.230.145.89 (talk) 00:11, 29 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

1) the burden rests with those adding content to show that it is notable through reliable sources, 2) there should be no article at all until there can be a showing of notability, 3) the types of blogs considered acceptable are those that are generally considered reliable, such as those run by news agencies and a fanbase is not the criterion for notability, significant coverage in independent sources is, 4) the article on nbcsports is unambiguously about SEC hockey in general and not focused on Frozen Tide. Also, individual players being notable does not mean the club itself is notable. Note: All statements meant to be purely informative and not snarky. The policies and guidelines of WP are in place for reasons and one of those is to prevent overzealous people from creating articles on subjects with which they have close personal attachments. If this topic is truly notable within the meaning of WP:NOTE, it should not be hard to find some significant coverage by sources not related to the Frozen Tide. Cquan (after the beep...) 01:54, 29 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete: This is a perfectly straightforward issue; collegiate inter- or intramural teams have not been held to be presumptively notable. The GNG takes no notice of how many people attend their games, whether their players have or have not played professional hockey, whether or not the particular articles are WIP, the number of trucks nationwide which sport team bumper stickers, the industriousness of local hockey bloggers or the number of years Wikipedia editors claim to have worked in law offices (in which, at 17 years and counting, I should be ahead of the curve). Certainly someone familiar with the legal field must understand that the best way to meet a guideline is to meet it, rather than argue why failing to do so ought to be credited nonetheless as a success. We would of course pass any club team which did meet the GNG by having multiple reliable, independent sources report upon them in "significant detail" (not counting sports scores and match writeups discouraged by WP:ROUTINE). Do you have any articles from the Birmingham Press or The Hockey News to cite?  Ravenswing  18:39, 29 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: As far as "regularly covered in media across the south" goes, by the bye, I did an archive search for news articles on "Frozen Tide" + "hockey." Only six hits [2] exist over a four year period, only one of them - from the Montgomery Advertiser specifically about this team.  Ravenswing  18:48, 29 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per Ravenswing. There appears to be no reliable sources out there for this team. Looking at his links there is nothing to support notability for this team. -DJSasso (talk) 18:50, 29 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Alabama-related deletion discussions. —LadyofShalott 06:10, 30 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • delete (per referencing issues noted above and agreed with) I paticularily liked the first secondary reference (now to be former) used in this article...Ottawa4ever (talk) 13:55, 30 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • delete per rgtraynor. ccwaters (talk) 20:42, 30 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per above comments by Ravenswing. Also the user used the argument about teams "...competing at the highest levels of ACHA..." There is a grey area and an on-going debate on top ACHA DI team but right even if they are near the level of NCAA DIII we don't have articles for that level either. Also even if we did have articles for NCAA DIII and ACHA DI level teams, this is a DIII ACHA/club team. ACHA DI teams have attendance, marketing and other requirements by the ACHA, also a yearly budget of at least $50,000 and many have higher. Allowing for recruiting, marketing promotion, media coverage, etc... Many are run as varsity-club teams with direct connections to the university through the athletic department or rec sports and NAIA programs are varsity teams. Non of which apply to this article to even put that in a debatable grey area. Bhockey10 (talk) 21:36, 3 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment much of this article is also poorly written and looks to have COI injected into it. I took some of the useable info and placed it under the Club Sports section of the main Alabama Crimson Tide article. for this level of college hockey that amount of info is sufficient.Bhockey10 (talk) 22:04, 3 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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