Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Front yard
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- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. (non-admin closure) Mediran (t • c) 01:09, 2 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Front yard[edit]
- Front yard (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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This article is just a plain mess. It should probably be deleted. RightGot (talk) 04:05, 25 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Redirect to Yard (land). Backyard should probably be merged there too, seeing as neither it nor Yard are terribly long. Clarityfiend (talk) 04:53, 25 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep
Weak keep, maybe redirect- Clarityfiend is right that it's not a particularly good article or a long one. But we'll have to agree to disagree on backyard, which I think is pretty good and is, in my view, particularly important to Australian culture and vernacular. I would have to disagree with merging that to Yard (land), which seems mostly about cattle yards. With that in mind, I think front yard could probably be fixed/cleaned up to the point where it is of a similar quality to backyard. I might have a crack at a clean up. Stalwart111 05:55, 25 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Had a quick look to see if I could find some references and was actually surprised by how many were available. Obviously there are plenty of how-to style books about how best to decorate a front yard. But there are some of those sorts of books that give a good historical overview of what a front yard is and how it differs to other types of yards. There are also, from the looks of it, plenty of sources that talk about the historical/cultural importance of front yards (both academic and general interest type books) and a few academic papers. I've added a few relevant sources to the article without adding them as in-line citations. What tipped me over the edge was the subsequently-referenced text from the 1930s about the importance of front yards to the American psyche during the depression. There's also a bunch of news pieces on front yards, privacy, election lawn signs and the like that I haven't even gone near yet. Nomination was, I think, entirely fair enough but I really now think the article should be cleaned up rather than deleted. Happy to do some of that cleaning up. Have changed my note above on that basis. Stalwart111 06:42, 25 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep, though in the light of Clarityfiend's comments I wonder whether a rename to Front garden would not be more appropriate. There is clearly a vast cultural gulf here that language does not assist with. In England, the front garden is a concept which is instantly recognisable even though individual plot layouts vary. Briefly, population densities in NW Europe (to take just that as the example), dictate that there is usually a sharp physical division between the (limited) garden space on the street frontage which often has little privacy and which is a public display for the home, and the garden or other space at the rear which is typically private and used rather differently. The present article is a mess, and attempts to discuss the concept in terms of a 'typical' layout for certain parts of the world are unhelpful to users unless representative examples can be found for everywhere. A search in Google books on 'front garden' demonstrates the problem here - they begin with certain assumptions about the topic that this article cannot. I have not looked for them, but there will be sociological and anthropological studies of the concept as well which need to be incorporated. If someone wanted to blow it up and start again that might be best. --AJHingston (talk) 11:57, 25 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- AJH, I'm unclear as to what version you were looking at before you made your comment but I have been working on rewriting the article with the same sort of premise. It is very clear that a UK/EU perspective needs to be added. This is the version originally put up for AFD. The current version is very different though I believe it still needs a lot more work. Would appreciate your thoughts on the redraft so far, either here or on the article talk page. Stalwart111 12:11, 25 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- You are right that I was commenting on an earlier version. Improving an existing article can be difficult, especially when you would not have started from there. The back garden article, though, does demonstrate why there is still a difficulty in covering the whole topic here in the way that is being attempted. You may be right in taking things country by country, but there is then the problem of covering everywhere. For example, I am not sure whether it would be true to say in Britain that a change in the emphasis on the front garden in the early 20th century was as described in the US. Certainly the grand imposing sweep of the entrance drive became a rarity, but I suspect that was mostly to do with plot size; I doubt that there was for example a conscious decision to move the building line forward to give more space to the back, more that the front had to be sacrificed to allow as much space at the back as possible (a subtle but important distinction) or that people did not want large front gardens even where they had the choice. More interesting perhaps was the decision in some planned developments to give an open aspect to the frontage, associated for example with the Garden city movement or company towns such as Port Sunlight where residents might be prohibited from establishing plot boundaries. This did continue in the UK in some planned developments both private and public until the 1970s, but arguably the growth of the private estates of largely semi-detached housing of the inter-war period and after demonstrated the importance attached by many people to a protected and ornamental space on the street frontage. This is getting a bit OT for an AFD discussion, but others will bring their own thoughts. --AJHingston (talk) 13:24, 25 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- No, that's cool, I understand. Incidentally, I moved that bit into the US section (it has been changed several times). I'm putting together a ref list for the UK bit and I have some stuff on Canada and South Africa so they'll probably be added too. If you have anything to contribute to the UK bit, please do! Stalwart111 13:59, 25 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- You are right that I was commenting on an earlier version. Improving an existing article can be difficult, especially when you would not have started from there. The back garden article, though, does demonstrate why there is still a difficulty in covering the whole topic here in the way that is being attempted. You may be right in taking things country by country, but there is then the problem of covering everywhere. For example, I am not sure whether it would be true to say in Britain that a change in the emphasis on the front garden in the early 20th century was as described in the US. Certainly the grand imposing sweep of the entrance drive became a rarity, but I suspect that was mostly to do with plot size; I doubt that there was for example a conscious decision to move the building line forward to give more space to the back, more that the front had to be sacrificed to allow as much space at the back as possible (a subtle but important distinction) or that people did not want large front gardens even where they had the choice. More interesting perhaps was the decision in some planned developments to give an open aspect to the frontage, associated for example with the Garden city movement or company towns such as Port Sunlight where residents might be prohibited from establishing plot boundaries. This did continue in the UK in some planned developments both private and public until the 1970s, but arguably the growth of the private estates of largely semi-detached housing of the inter-war period and after demonstrated the importance attached by many people to a protected and ornamental space on the street frontage. This is getting a bit OT for an AFD discussion, but others will bring their own thoughts. --AJHingston (talk) 13:24, 25 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- AJH, I'm unclear as to what version you were looking at before you made your comment but I have been working on rewriting the article with the same sort of premise. It is very clear that a UK/EU perspective needs to be added. This is the version originally put up for AFD. The current version is very different though I believe it still needs a lot more work. Would appreciate your thoughts on the redraft so far, either here or on the article talk page. Stalwart111 12:11, 25 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Architecture-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 14:35, 25 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Speedy Keep - Notability is not in question in this case. The basic issue here is whether there is a fundamental difference in history and function between a front yard and a backyard, or whether the dichotomy is a false one and everything can be handled in merged form under yard (land). I believe that there are historical and functional differences and that the division is not an artificial one. Even if I am wrong about this, this is not the proper place for a merger discussion, which is a content matter, and this debate should be closed Keep on a procedural basis pending that discussion by involved parties. Carrite (talk) 17:10, 25 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - This could also be reasonably closed as a Speedy Keep on the basis that no valid rationale for deletion has been presented by the nominator. "Article is a mess" is an editing matter, not a notability matter. I'm consequently revising my opinion above from "Keep" to "Speedy Keep." Carrite (talk) 17:15, 25 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep There are indeed sources on the origins and sociological aspects of the British front garden (I'll see what I can add but have other things on my plate right now), as mentioned above for the US front yard. Hence the topic is demonstrably notable; the challenge is to make a clear and balanced article out of it. Yngvadottir (talk) 18:45, 25 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep. This article has been significantly improved since the AfD nomination. Any problems with the article should be dealt with through normal editing. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 01:48, 26 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep per WP:HEY and as passing WP:N. For source examples, see those added to the article by User:Stalwart111. Northamerica1000(talk) 03:45, 27 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.