Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Fremont Interchange

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Black Kite (talk) 19:42, 2 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Fremont Interchange[edit]

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De-PROD-ed, was nominated because the article "fails to meet WP:GNG: lacks 'significant coverage in reliable sources independent of the subject'." The de-PROD reason was that other large interchanges have articles, yet any with articles have to meet WP:GNG, which this article does not. Imzadi 1979 → 02:53, 24 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Transportation-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 04:37, 24 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Oregon-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 04:37, 24 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

delete First of all, I can't tell from the article which interchange this is, though I would guess that it's the one at the SW end of the bridge. But anyway, I'm not finding anything but routine construction coverage, and I note that GHits are considerably inflated by an unrelated railroad feature and by another interchange or two in the midwest. The candidate interchange itself looks unremarkable and the claim to notability is marginal at best. Mangoe (talk) 14:09, 24 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. I bet that it is a notable interchange. There have been several interchanges PRODed or AFDd recently, including Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Brebes Exit, seemingly because it is believed that interchanges cannot be notable, but they can. The Orange Crush interchange is one big interchange. AFAIK there are relatively few articles about interchanges, and they are all notable, and there should be more of them, not fewer. --do ncr am 18:41, 24 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I notice that it is the only interchange specifically mentioned in the introduction of the List of road interchanges in the United States article, so it seems pretty important. :) Also, while I !vote "Keep", a lesser alternative to outright deletion would be to merge/redirect to that list-article. --do ncr am 19:12, 24 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Um, it's there because you just created that list article and you put it in the lead of that list, which I would presume is just a dump of the corresponding categories. I don't deny that interchanges can be notable, but as a rule the reason they are is because they are notorious for their traffic problems and/or accidents, and have required a lot of redesign over the years. There is no evidence for that here. Mangoe (talk) 20:07, 24 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Ya got me there, about creating the list-article, which was needed. :) An interchange can cost up to $1.7 billion, apparently. The list-article immediately has a dozen major interchanges in California, but just this one so far in Oregon. I do tend to believe it is one of the most major interchanges in the state, if not the top one, which is a claim of importance. I am not sure how to search for coverage of it, really. Wikipedia coverage in this area is spotty so far, I and some others are just figuring this out. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of road interchanges in the United States was started but will likely be closed as SNOW KEEP. This Oregon interchange article needs a little time to get sorted out; I say keep and revisit in six months or a year, and I bet we will have systematic coverage of all the interchanges with $ costs and numbers of ramps and miles of roadway involved and more good stuff. If there is too much impatience here because some editors don't yet believe these topics (and this Oregon one) are important, then I don't terribly mind if this is redirected to List of road interchanges in the United States#Fremont Interchange for the time being, until I re-create it. :) --do ncr am 04:15, 26 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

If it's not a notable interchange, and that's all the list will contain, then how can such a redirect be justified? Look, the article really makes no claim to notability anyway. Mangoe (talk) 04:18, 26 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Even if you succeed in getting this article deleted on basis that it is deemed "not Wikipedia-notable", you will not succeed in getting the item deleted from the list-article, because list-item-notability is different, and sources exist, and there can obviously be a sourced entry about it in the list. I suppose we could have a battle at the list-article's Talk page about defining list-item-notability. Please note: having the list-article is a "good thing" for deletionists, because it can be the redirect/merge target for marginal articles. However, you have also nominated the list-article for deletion. Especially while that AFD is open, it is more important to Keep this article.

It appears (i am not sure though) that it is the biggest interchange in Oregon, and I bet that its eventual reconstruction will cost one or more billions of dollars when it has to happen, based on prices for others that I have seen now. Some comments on sources below. The list-article now has a reference to an article headlined "8 monster interchanges that blight American cities", where I think the author didn't write the headline. The article covers huge cost to construct some of these and huge consequences of millions of person-years involved in congestion before these were built or reconstructed, or if they are not functioning smoothly. These interchanges are not blights; they are amazing treasures which allow urban areas to function. I would say the Fremont Interchange is under-appreciated in Wikipedia, although I don't know if the Portland area or Oregon as a state properly/fully appreciates it or not, though the state Department of Transportation probably does; deletion of the article is not the way forward. Sources do exist; it is better to develop than to delete or even to redirect/merge. This is a huge item. As a matter of perspective, it is more important than many/most populated places in the United States, more important than most roadways covered by WikiProject U.S. Roads. --do ncr am 17:33, 26 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - I was unable to find any sources for this page. 47.208.20.130 (talk) 01:54, 25 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. Try searching on "i-5 i-405 interchange Portland". This yields, for example, the Oregon DOT's the "I-5: I-84 to I-405 Design Workshop Concept Report" which covers a lot about the interchange, as well as roadway leading to it. For context:

I-5 was constructed during the first half of the 1960s. This includes the roadway and the structures, so these elements are now more than forty years old. There has not been major reconstruction of any of these elements. The Fremont Bridge and the I-405 (Fremont) Interchange were constructed about ten years later in the first half of the 1970s.

and there's more in that document.

There's this report about i-5 closure there or nearby (i am not sure where the "Burnside Bridge" is. Someone local could understand the Google hits better than me, and/or find better hits with variations on the search. It seems that construction on related highway 84 and various bridges nearby might be more pressing in recent years, but anyhow, the Fremont Interchange exists and is huge, and will surely cost hundreds of millions to replace when it must be replaced. Coverage of its construction in 1970s and how it was no doubt one of the great marvels of the Western world, then, are not found easily online. But certainly there would have been tons about it, and notability is not temporary. --do ncr am 04:38, 26 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

It might be an option to merge the Fremont Interchange and the Fremont Bridge into a combo article, if they were in fact planned together and built at the same time. I would leave that to local editors. --do ncr am 17:46, 26 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. Clearly fails to meet notability guidelines, since few outside of Portland even know it has a name. Moreover, the only Oregon DOT documents about the interchange refer to it by a different name (East Fremont, to disambiguate from the West Fremont Interchange), so the article would need to be moved. The information contained is redundant to the I-405 article, which would easily be able to encompass the history of the interchange (which ties into the freeway's history as a whole). Sounder Bruce 21:06, 26 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - Nothing in this article explains why this interchange is special enough for its own article. Relevant details can be covered in the articles of the roads serving the interchange. Dough4872 00:57, 27 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Interchanges can be notable, and many are. This one isn't. I did a quick check of the first page of Google results for "fremont interchange" (Link), and the only result referencing this interchange in Portland is the list written by doncram, which is also at AfD. (For the record, I voted "weak keep" on that discussion.) Most of the results were for interchanges in Fremont, California, with another one for a project in (I believe) Iowa and another for an apparently non-road usage. This interchange doesn't deserve an article. -happy 5214 04:44, 27 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

~~Delete~~ Merge to Fremont Bridge (Portland, Oregon). The article creator seems to have conferred notability of the interchange from the notability of the bridge, for which the punishment is a {{trout}}ing. I had to do some digging, but all I did was confirm what SounderBruce found; Oregon DOT refers to it as "East Fremont – Exit 302B", but that seems to be more for department reference than for naming's sake. –Fredddie ™ 11:09, 27 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

See below. –Fredddie ™ 21:19, 27 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comment FWIW, i was not creator of the article. I don't think merely "exit 302" is the name for the I-5, I-405, I-84 interchange, which gets ridership of 135,000 daily and is apparently the highest-ridership interchange in Oregon. [in fact it does seem to be at milepoint 302 on the I-5, see accident reports comment below. --do ncr am 16:42, 28 August 2017 (UTC)] (In a study of chokepoints posted at tripnets.org there is one non-interchange chokepoint, the "I-205 Sunnyside Road to Glisan Street", which has higher ridership of 130,000-164,000.) This factoid is not yet in article.[reply]

It is utterly silly to check just first page of results of just "Fremont Interchange", when yes that is not used commonly as the name for the intersection, just as in Los Angeles no one knows what is the "Pregerson Interchange", everyone knows it as the I-110 - I-105 interchange. And when there is a different interchange in Fremont, California, and when it has been pointed out above that searching differently gets more relevant results. Like I said before, try searching on "i-5 i-405 interchange Portland".

For example, this review of chokepoints in Oregon mentions "$800 million-$1.3 billion" cost of potential improvement to this interchange, with "$300-350 million for improvements to Broadway/Weidler and widen I-5 to 3 lanes" as a lesser improvement which is in fact happening. I was so far ignoring the large amount of available coverage on the Weidler-related construction which is going forward, and which can be viewed as is part of this interchange. --do ncr am 20:43, 27 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Don't you think that if "Fremont Interchange" were a common name, I would get some Google hits and I wouldn't have to search for "the I-5, I-405, and I-84 interchange"? (Fremont Interchange Portland search results) The hits that seem relevant are mostly talking about the interchange on the south bank of the Willamette River not on the north side.. For comparison's sake, here is Judge Harry Pregerson Interchange, where most of the hits are relevant. Nobody is doubting any of the statistics that you've mention, doncram, so I'm starting to think that since they're inextricably linked, maybe we should move the content to Fremont Bridge and all sleep better tonight. –Fredddie ™ 21:19, 27 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Umm, you'd get far more coverage of the I-105/I-110 interchange in Los Angeles if you searched on how it is usually referred to, than if you search on "Pregerson", which no one in Los Angeles has ever heard of, it certainly is not mentioned in traffic reports about congestion/accidents/construction. That one in the middle of Los Angeles is a much busier interchange than the busiest interchange in the state of Oregon, so searching on its non-common name yields more than searching on the non-common name for the Oregon one. Using the Pregerson and Fremont names seems preferable for the titles of Wikipedia articles, but those aren't the common names.

About making a combo article with the bridge, that would be okay by me. I suggested that as a possibility above, but actually the bridge is different, and there is a usual style for bridge articles with categories and so on, and I actually think the interchange should be separate. --do ncr am 21:41, 27 August 2017 (UTC) --do ncr am 00:55, 28 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Delete because "I bet that it is a notable interchange." is not good enough. --Rs chen 7754 05:30, 28 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Besides the couple references and the approach to searching which i added to this AFD after first "betting" that it would be a notable interchange, here's one more: 2014 "Most Dangerous Roads and Intersections in Oregon 2014" lists it as one of the "ranked high" ones (named as the "I-405 and I-5" intersection). Clicking through the 60-slide slide show gets one to:

#29 Most Dangerous
I-5 Near Exit 302A/Mile Point 302.76-302.95
Portland, Multnomah County
Total Crashes: 34
Fatalities: 1
Injuries: 19
Property Damage: 14

and

#23 Most Dangerous
I-5 Near Exit 302A/Mile Point 302.52-302.76
Portland, Multnomah County
Total Crashes: 140 
Fatalities: 0
Injuries: 65
Property Damage: 75

and

#18 Most Dangerous
I-5/Mile Point 300.19-300.51
Portland, Multnomah County
Total Crashes: 155
Fatalities: 0
Injuries: 77
Property Damage: 78

which compare to:

#1 Most Dangerous
US-26 & I-405
Portland, Multnomah County
Total Crashes: 381
Fatalities: 0
Injuries: 213
Property Damage: 168

It seems one interchange includes more than one "intersection" and there is no total available for all accidents at the interchange. --do ncr am 16:42, 28 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

And, among results found by searching on "Exit 302" within ODOT there is diagram of the I-5/I-405 interchange with daily traffic counts for 2015 in [http://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/Data/Documents/Ramps_2015.pdf this ODOT document at PDF page 20 (its page 168), with 35,320 and 39,140 being the two busiest ramps of the diagram labelled "East Fremont - Exit 302B".

Another option which could be done after this AFD is to convert the Fremont Interchange article into something like Interchanges in Pennsylvania, which hasn't been questioned, knock on wood. --do ncr am 16:58, 28 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

So, what? Should we create 60 articles, one for each of those interchanges? --Rs chen 7754 18:12, 28 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The idea would be just 1 article for Oregon interchanges, avoiding future separate articles and AFDs. --do ncr am 20:19, 28 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.