Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Fourth planet (disambiguation)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. SpinningSpark 09:24, 26 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Fourth planet (disambiguation)[edit]

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I am also nominating the following related pages:

A few other "Nth planet (disambiguation)" pages that people agreed should be deleted at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Second planet (disambiguation) but need a separate discussion since they weren't properly listed here. I also boldly redirected disambiguation pages previously at First planet and Third planet. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 19:05, 1 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Astronomy-related deletion discussions. XOR'easter (talk) 19:18, 1 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Disambiguation-related deletion discussions. XOR'easter (talk) 19:18, 1 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
My opinion on fourth planet (disambiguation) and sixth planet (disambiguation) remains as it was for Second planet (disambiguation) (AfD discussion), as in my view they are identical situations. (No, "Planet Four" is not the same title as "fourth planet", any more than "Planet X" is the same title as "Tenth planet".)
Seventh planet (disambiguation) is just bizarre. Only one thing in the disambiguation is a seventh planet. "5th giant" is in no sense an ambiguous title here. But the disambiguation article used to contain the seventh geocentric model planet, which was Saturn. It hasn't contained any other ambiguous titles in its history that I can see, so even back when it was actually disambiguating, it was doing the same as the aforementioned 3: disambiguating two planets by number. So my reasoning for those three applies to that article, too. Take the reader directly to planet#History for historical geocentric numberings.
Eighth planet (disambiguation) is where things get interesting. There's not a geocentric model 8th planet, and this is disambiguating three heliocentric model 8th planets (two for quite a lot of the page's history). Obviously there's a primary topic. But whether 1 Ceres or Pluto were an "eighth planet" is the thing to consider. Back in the period when the first four asteroids were considered planets, 1 Ceres was listed 7th in order of distance from Sol, not 8th, in contemporary encyclopaedias and sources like François Arago's 1845 Lectures. There's a very brief window when 5 Astraea pushed it out to 8th, but by then it was already commonly listed as the first minor planet, and had been for at least 25 years. (Witness the 1819 list of minor planets in Principles of the sciences at the Internet Archive for example.) I've not found anyone actually designating Ceres as either the eighth planet or the seventh planet in that era. It never had those titles. So that's not ambiguous. As for Pluto, there are serious astronomical sources from before the conversion from major to dwarf planet that did seriously note that it was the eighth planet for a while. Unlike 1 Ceres, it did have the title. But that leaves us in the same situation as with the other three disambiguations, only 2 things to disambiguate and a non-primary topic better served by taking the reader directly to pluto#Orbit via a headnote (or some such) where the fact that it orbited inside the orbit of Neptune for 20 of the years that it was a major planet is already mentioned. Having a whole disambiguation article just to repeat that out of context is overkill.
Uncle G (talk) 23:29, 1 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Delete all per my comments at the previous AfD. –LaundryPizza03 (d c̄) 02:39, 2 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 22:35, 8 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 10:45, 16 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - there are many articles in science fiction (not Mars) and for exoplanets. I don't know for the other Nth planets. Higher numbers aren't as likely. StrayBolt (talk) 18:07, 22 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Are any of these really going to be looked for using the term fourth planet" with no other context? * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 18:26, 22 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Pppery: I think some (very few) people will look for "fourth planet" and are not necessarily looking for "Mars". So the Fourth/4th planet should continue to redirect to Mars. I tried to look for some stats, but I'm still processing. I think Mars, which is where Fourth planet redirects to, doesn't[1] and never had a hat with a link to this disambig[2] and that was a mistake. That should be fixed and we can use the new data. People's search methods can greatly vary.

Redirects to Mars[3] StrayBolt (talk) 01:16, 23 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I was asking if the term "fourth planet" is a plausible search term for the specific exoplanets and fictional planets you added. I think not, since everyone expects Wikipedia to prioritize the solar system over those things. I'm not disputing that it's a plausible search term for the Zooniverse space project or various things that were the fourth planet in the past, both of which are linked to in the current hatnote. If it is kept at AfD, then I agree that the hatnote should be changed to point to the dab page, but it's too soon to do that. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 01:24, 23 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, already did that. Maybe we can get a little more data from that. StrayBolt (talk) 01:49, 23 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: This should be listed as a "2nd nomination". There was a bulk AfD in 2012. StrayBolt (talk) 04:14, 23 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Science fiction and fantasy-related deletion discussions. StrayBolt (talk) 05:26, 23 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Delete all. Disambiguation pages are meant to disambiguate between likely search terms, especially where several articles could plausibly have that title. These pages are more WP:INDISCRIMINATE lists of trivia. It is highly unlikely that people will be searching for "sixth planet" because they want to find out what that was under the Ptolemic model. Nor is it likely that someone searching for a fictional planet in science fiction, or a real exoplanet, will be typing in "Fifth planet" or similar without any other context. Sjakkalle (Check!) 08:54, 24 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect 1-8 to their respective real worlds. Never mind science-fiction, these are plausible search terms for just kiddos and their parents. Within science-fiction, these seem like a stretch: the sci-fi phrasing is stuff like "third planet from its feeble yellow sun" or "the sixth planet of the Eemiv system" - and those can redirect to the originating work. 9 ... probably redirect to Pluto until the next few generations die ;-). 10+ Planet, if they exist, delete. --EEMIV (talk) 11:43, 25 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It makes no sense to redirect a (disambiguation) page to an article. And everything except fifth planet is already a redirect to the planet with that ordinal in the current heliocentric model. Ninth planet, tenth planet, and eleventh planet are currently redirects to planets beyond Neptune (which seems preferable to deletion to me). It's not clear what you are suggesting. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 13:30, 25 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Delete all as unlikely search terms. Stifle (talk) 15:46, 25 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.