Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Feodor Vassilyev

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. John254 00:29, 11 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Feodor Vassilyev[edit]

First, the article is clearly incorrect as written. Feodor is a common Russian male name so it is a he, not a she and he could not have given birth to any children. I did a bit of google searching and found some (non-WP:RS) references, such as these[1][2] claiming that it was Feodor Vassiliev's wife who had given birth to 69 children. I was not able to find any reliable sources (by searching googlebooks, googlescholar, etc) that actually confirm this claim. Even if the claim can be verified, it does not conform notability on Feodor Vassiliev but rather, possibly (and even then, debatable) on his unnamed wife. So the article about him should be deleted anyway, both on WP:V and WP:N grounds. Nsk92 (talk) 21:52, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. —Nsk92 (talk) 22:12, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Russia-related deletion discussions. —Nsk92 (talk) 22:16, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Keep, with rewrite to specify "the wife of Feodor Vassilyev". She is apparently referenced in Guinness Book of Records - does that count as RS?. Fanx (talk) 22:41, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I very much doubt that she is in Guinness since it did not exist in the 18th century. Guinness has fairly strict rules about only listing records that they themselves have verified. Even if the info re Vassiliev's wife is confirmed and verified in accordance with WP:V (which, at the moment, is very much in question), there is not enough here for a biographical article and no possibility of expanding the article beyong a couple of sentences. We don't even know the name of the woman or the dates of her birth and death and know nothing else about her life. If verified, the info about her may merit a mention in another article on a larger topic but not a separate article. Nsk92 (talk) 22:57, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment This google books search preview gets several editions of guinness supporting the claim, although none of them have more than snippet view.John Z (talk) 06:27, 31 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hmmm. I still say that this does not merit a separate biographical article, but rather, perhaps, a mention somewhere else. We do not know anything else about this person, such as her name, dates of birth and death or any other details of her life. As I said, there is no possibility of ever expanding the article beyond a couple of sentences that it is now. Nsk92 (talk) 12:06, 31 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You're probably right. If memory serves, there was another Russian woman cited as having given birth to a great number of children a bit later. IIRC some editions had photographs of her with many of her progeny. Someone with a name and more that one could build an article around. If we have an article on her, this meager information could be merged into it.John Z (talk) 18:23, 31 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, lifebaka++ 17:53, 6 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Keep as an article on the woman, although if we don't have her name that is awkward. I have a copy of The Guinness Book of Records from 1993 and I can verify that she is listed as holding the record for giving birth to the most children, and the facts given correspond to what is stated in the article. If we decide the keep the article, I could add a few more details. Everyking (talk) 08:11, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I can certainly remember reading, in the 70s editions of the Guinness BOWR, a mention of a Russian peasant, name of Feodor Vasiliyev, whose wife gave birth to a cartload of kids (including multiple multiples) and was presented at the court of the Tsar. Its worth at least a Smerge to the relevant Multiple Births page if not already mentioned, although Gospodina Vasiliyeva seems as close as we'll get to her name. Plutonium27 (talk) 13:01, 9 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Childbirth seems like a better destination for the merge since Multiple births relates to multiple births within a single pregnancy, such as twins, triplets, etc. Regarding Gospodina, the correct Russian word is actually "Gospozha" (Госпожа), which is the Russian feminine form for "Gospodin" (Господин). Although, being Russian myself, I must confess that I don't know what the correct English conventions regarding such issues are, maybe "Gospodina" is also OK. However, as a historical term, its usage here may be a bit problematic as it indicates a different socio-economic status from that of a peasant. Feodor Vassilyev and his wife were Russian peasants living in the 18th century. Almost all peasants in Russia at that time were serfs (a form of slavery that existed in Russia until 1861). It is almost certain that the Vassilievs were serfs as well. The term "gospodin", which translates from Russian roughly as "lord" or "master") at that time was a kind of a honorific that was reserved specifically for the free gentry and indicated at least some form of nobility and the usage of that term indicated belonging to gentry. (I do not think even free peasants or cossaks would have been called "gospodin" at that time, although I am not sure). Nsk92 (talk) 13:47, 9 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.