Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Eric Rosen (chess player) (2nd nomination)

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. While the "keep" arguments are made in good faith, most of them end up demonstrating that this person does not meet the relevant notability standard, and I'm just not seeing a strong IAR argument to keep. Vanamonde (Talk) 18:39, 6 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Eric Rosen (chess player)[edit]

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Eric Rosen (chess player) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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No change in notability since this article was last deleted (pinging all participants in that discussion: @Brightgalrs, Grapefruit17, Clarityfiend, Capogreco, and SportingFlyer:). Does not meet WP:NCHESS, and I cannot find any non-routine coverage in reliable independent sources that would satisfy WP:GNG. 50k Twitch followers and 100k Youtube subscribers is fairly WP:Run-of-the-mill these days. --Ahecht (TALK
PAGE) 13:16, 30 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. --Ahecht (TALK
PAGE) 13:16, 30 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Games-related deletion discussions. --Ahecht (TALK
PAGE) 13:16, 30 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Internet-related deletion discussions. --Ahecht (TALK
PAGE) 13:16, 30 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. Full disclosure, I originally wrote this article, but I would argue that Rosen meets WP:ENT. Within the chess community, he is a well-known figure. With that being said, his following could be considered WP:Run-of-the-mill. Therefore, my keep recommendation is based largely on his meeting WP:SPORTSPERSON. Rosen competed in the 2019 US Blitz Open and 2013 World Blitz Open. He also won the 2011 K-12 National Championship, a feat that I would argue satisfies WP:SPORTSPERSON on its own. Two sources to show that Rosen is notable under WP:SPORTSPERSON: One Two AviationFreak💬 17:08, 30 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure that winning a high school national championship automatically confers notability. WP:SPORTSPERSON says and so is likely to have received significant coverage in reliable secondary sources that are independent of the subject and I'm just not seeing that coverage. See WP:YOUNGATH, which specifically excludes local coverage and sports-specific publications when determining the notability of high school athletes. --Ahecht (TALK
PAGE) 22:08, 30 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Ahecht: I linked two instances of coverage in my response to support WP:SPORTSPERSON, I'm sure there are more beyond those. Rosen also won with a perfect score of 7-0 in 2011, which is unusual. The sources I listed above both constitute "significant coverage in reliable secondary sources independent of the subject." They are not mentioning him in passing or WP:ROUTINE. They are about him. AviationFreak💬 04:34, 31 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The Skokie Review source strikes me as marginal since their interest in him is that he was originally from Skokie. The USChess source is almost legit, but the link to it doesn't work any more -- could you find one that does? I say "almost" because OF COURSE US Chess is going to post an article about the winner(s) of a tournament they hold. I don't think this by itself is good enough. They have had many high school champions over the years, most of whom don't meet Wiki notability standard. Bruce leverett (talk) 17:29, 3 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
For his competitive achievements, you should be looking at WP:NCHESS rather than WP:SPORTSPERSON, and he clearly does not meet that. As I said below: lots and lots of kids get press coverage when they win junior events. He needs to meet WP:ENT (which I am not qualified to comment on), or at least a combination of "almost" WP:ENT and "almost" WP:NCHESS. Adpete (talk) 05:10, 4 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Winning a high school anything never is an automatic sign to notability.John Pack Lambert (talk) 12:45, 31 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. As an International Master (the title just below Grandmaster), Rosen is close to the WP:NCHESS standard. As an ubiquitous figure in the online chess community, I think he meets the WP:ENT standard. Krakatoa (talk) 22:47, 1 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Of course we shouldn't be judging notability by playing strength; that is one reason why WP:NCHESS is such a touchy subject with some chess editors. But in any case, shame on you for trying to pass off, on an audience of perhaps less experienced chess players, the notion that IM is "close" enough to GM. Bruce leverett (talk) 14:31, 6 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: He was National schools champion, not national champion. Lots (and I mean LOTS) of kids get in the news for winning junior sports events, and that does not make them notable. He fails the notability guidelines WP:NCHESS as a player alone, because he is neither a GM, nor a national (open age) champion, nor a participant at a major event. He perhaps meets WP:ENT, and his notability or otherwise hinges on that. Adpete (talk) 03:47, 4 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
WP:SPORTSPERSON does not supersede WP:GNG -- it says right on the page that meeting it does not guarantee that a subject should be included, and refers back to WP:NSPORTS. The triblocal source is, as the URL implies, local coverage, and is therefore explicitly excluded by the WP:YOUNGATH section of WP:NSPORTS. Northstarnews is a school newspaper, which is also explicitly excluded by WP:YOUNGATH. The Challengers Choker Cup is a non-notable competition (I fail to see how a competition that isn't notable enough to have it's own article can confer notability on its winners), which is described by it's creator Chess24 as This Challengers Choker Cup is for entertainment and just for fun. The Gutshotmagazine article only makes passing references to Rosen, offering a play-by-play of the matches instead of mentioning anything at all about Rosen himself other than his name. --Ahecht (TALK
PAGE) 06:58, 4 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. The article is only a week old and it's already getting over 40 views per day, more than the judge and playwright of the same name combined.[1] There's something notable about him, and if our readers want more information about him, there's no reason we shouldn't provide it. Station1 (talk) 06:13, 4 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • Per WP:POPULARPAGE, just because an article is popular does not mean it is within the project scope. --Ahecht (TALK
      PAGE      ) 06:59, 4 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      • The rest of that sentence is: although article popularity is likely to correspond with some form of notability which should then be straightforward to verify. Station1 (talk) 04:12, 6 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete As an International Master he plays chess to a very high standard, but that is not by itself enough to justify an article. He does not meet NCHESS (not a part of NSPORTS but a useful guide nonetheless) and I cannot find the significant coverage in independent reliable sources to meet GNG. Having 100,000 YouTube subscribers does not mean he is notable as a chess coach.-- P-K3 (talk) 12:41, 4 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Rosen has been covered significantly in independent reliable sources:
  1. Niles North's Rosen Wins National Chess Championship
  2. Eric Rosen titled FIDE Master
  3. Eric Rosen beats Botez in Challengers Choker Cup Final
  4. Chess champ from Skokie earns rare international title
  5. Rosen Tops High School Nationals
All of these sources are reliable, independent, and do not mention Rosen only in passing. AviationFreak💬 19:44, 4 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Those all seem to be either local papers or the USCF reporting on one of its own events. I'm not convinced that's sufficient. P-K3 (talk) 00:34, 5 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. His chess achievements are not notable (WP:NCHESS), neither is his youtube channel. Sophia91 (talk) 18:52, 4 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete and salt - this badly fails WP:GNG. The fact we're trying to save this with a school newspaper only underlines that fact. (The Chicago Tribune article is okay, but it's a local feature story.) Also, WP:SPORTSPERSON is written in a way which presumes there will be qualifying coverage, and there's not. SportingFlyer T·C 07:29, 5 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. Eric Rosen is an very well known chess player who consistently streams on twitch and posts on youtube. Easily getting over 100k views on his videos that can reach up to over an hour in length. As stated previously he has been covered to a large extent by reliable sources. And his wiki page should stay as it is and continue to be updated in more languages. 00:32, 6 August 2020 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by LarsLovold (talk • contribs)
  • Keep per AviationFreak, Krakatoa, ASTIG, Station1 and LarsLovold. The links to sources provided by AviationFreak at 19:44, 4 August above are convincing. Furthermore, Rosen's entry in the notoriously strict German Wikipedia has existed since October 2019 and is supported by 13 inline cites. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 06:23, 6 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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