Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Epona (The Legend of Zelda)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was No consensus to delete the material‎. However, neither is there a clear consensus for keeping it as a standalone or merging it. I'm loathe to kick the can down the road given the recent merger conversation, but this has been open for three weeks and I think this can now be handled editorially. Star Mississippi 23:42, 21 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Epona (The Legend of Zelda)[edit]

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The article's reception is mostly build up with trivia articles/sources like listicles and a bit of passing mentions from game reviews. Only one sigcov [1]. Cannot find more per WP:BEFORE somehow. GreenishPickle! (🔔) 22:15, 30 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Video games-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 22:49, 30 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Weak keep per other commenters, though I may be inclined to change my vote depending on how the argument swings. What's presented here plus some selective bits and bobs from the current article should be enough to justify an article, but admittedly it's weaker than something like Midna or Navi. Pokelego999 (talk) 19:21, 31 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Weak Keep or Merge While I certainly don't blame @Greenish Pickle! for finding some fault and question in the article, I do feel that the character barely ekes out enough unique notability to the development and gameplay of various very popular video games to have a page. However I feel that this issue could be somewhat amended by cleaning up the Characters of The Legend of Zelda - which comes off (to me) as a bit of an excessively detailed mess, and merging much of the contents of this Epona (The Legend of Zelda) article into it. I think it would benefit from being cleaned up and pruned to something more like the Starship Enterprise page, with more focus but fewer entities.A MINOTAUR (talk) 15:58, 14 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Delete we very rarely give fictional animal characters their own article (we'd much prefer if the fictional character in the article's topic of question be human). No matter how "notable". The OP is just doing his/her due diligence.Americanfreedom (talk) 23:48, 30 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That is pure IDONTLIKEIT. QuicoleJR (talk) 00:12, 31 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@QuicoleJR: No, It's pure, WP:POINT. I consider Epona to be just as notable as Zelda, Link, Ganondorf Etc and yet none of THOSE articles are up for deletion. If you're gonna smack me with a wiki-guideline at least smack me with the right one. Americanfreedom (talk) 19:34, 11 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Do you want to keep it or delete it? QuicoleJR (talk) 19:49, 11 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Didn't expect that kind of rationale. GreenishPickle! (🔔) 00:21, 31 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Haven't had the chance to check for sources yet, but nothing here equates to a valid stance so far... Sergecross73 msg me 02:52, 31 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions.
Merge to Characters of The Legend of Zelda#Epona. Needless to say, "animals can't have articles" is flat out wrong (see Category:Individual animals) and Dogmeat (Fallout) which is clearly notable. Deletion is a total impossibility as there is an obvious ATD target. However, nominator seems to be accurate as there is possibly no significant coverage of Epona in reliable sources. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 04:17, 31 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep by combining with Epona's Song. There are a number of secondary looking at that piece of music, like The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time - A Game Music Companion and Music Video Games - Performance, Politics, and Play, p. 95-96, making the song likely notable in its own right. I think it would be beneficial to treat that information within the context of our Epona article here. The topic Epona itself, next to the sources already in the article, is treated in 1001 Video Games You Must Play Before You Die, Retro Gamer 3/2020, p. 77, Naming Your Little Geek, p. 85, "Las Influencias Célticas en la Franquicia de Videojuegos The Legend of Zelda" and La musique dans Zelda (variously in combination with Epona's Song) throughout, in addition to many more shorter treatments. There is also this extended academic podcast, where I don't know the extent but where Epona appears right away in the abstract. So I think Epona is notable, and very surely notable if taken together with Epona's Song. Daranios (talk) 09:54, 31 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
hmmmm Interesting. Not sure about this one. @Zxcvbnm WDYT about the sources of Epona's song? Does it help? GreenishPickle! (🔔) 10:48, 31 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure if this means Epona the horse is notable, or Epona's Song is notable. It's not as though songs can't have their own Wiki articles. One relevant example is that Dragonborn (song) has an article, but the Dragonborn character does not. If it's the song, it would still mean this particular article would be redirected to the character list. But I will check the noted sources for the character. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 10:55, 31 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Pinging the participants @Fieryninja, DecafPotato, and Klbrain: of the not-so-long-past merge discussion, in case they would like to give their input here. Daranios (talk) 10:01, 31 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep In addition to Epona's song, there's an article about her functionality here [2]. Not sure if that counts? I also think that her role in Ocarina of Time's development was pretty important and that is stated in the development section. Fieryninja (talk) 11:10, 31 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It does count, great job on finding that 1st sigcov, thou I think it needs 2 more per WP:THREE and It feel like Epona's song is more notable than a horse itself. GreenishPickle! (🔔) 11:36, 31 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It's the kind of article I'd be fine with accepting if there are other good sources out there, but I'd be iffy about if it was the major thing the article was hinging on to prove Epona is notable. Most of it is about King of Red Lions rather than Epona herself. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 11:59, 31 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I should note WP:THREE is merely an essay. If there's a truly awe-inspiring source on Epona, three may not even be necessary. But I don't think anyone has written a book on Epona that would render this discussion irrelevant. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 12:03, 31 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Weak keep. I feel like Epona's song is tied into Epona's notability, and there are some okay sources tied to Epona. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 18:39, 31 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Weak keep The real-world & in-universe significance are somewhat debatable, but (unlike other Zelda characters with articles) this character will likely keep reappearing in the franchise and as merchandise, and the article already has a non-crufty size where it may pass as a WP:SPINOUT article. – sgeureka ^t•c 13:58, 4 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep or merge this is on the threshold of WP:SIGCOV. If there isn't a consensus that this passes WP:GNG then there is a clear WP:ATD. Shooterwalker (talk) 01:31, 5 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Relisting. Being "on the threshold of WP:SIGCOV" means it's not there yet. Maybe another week will help uncover the necessary sources that are requisite for a standalone article or there will be additional voices of support for a possible Merge.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 21:53, 6 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Weak keep per previous vote. Pokelego999 (talk) 00:56, 12 August 2023 (UTC)Duplicate !vote. Black Kite (talk) 10:04, 14 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Six keep votes and one delete (that is also an obvious WP:AADD), I know AfD is not a vote but this should not have been relisted. Kudos to Daranios for digging up all those sources. Some additional Japanese SIGCOV: 1 2 3 4 Satellizer el Bridget ^(Talk) 11:24, 7 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I checked every one of these to see if it would be enough to make me change my opinion. Unfortunately I am not sure I would call any of them significant. The first one is bringing to attention a single illustration but does not comment on Epona. The second is almost nothing, just someone blogging and asking where Epona is. The latter two have an equivalent article in English here, but it's a simple announcement of a Monster Hunter x Zelda collaboration. That particular DLC did not get any significant treatment in the gaming press beyond "it exists". ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 17:08, 7 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes I basically agree the above analysis of the articles. Basically none of them directly and thoroughly discuss Epona. Milky Defer 03:48, 8 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Merge and a proposal: I did a quick search in Yahoo Japan for Japanese sources and the results were unsatisfactory. I would support a merge to general characters article. The above !votes noticed Epona's song. The song itself may not be notable enough for a standalone article, but I would propose an article like Music from The Legend of Zelda be created instead. Milky Defer 03:58, 8 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Merge: Per the various reasons stated above. Clear Looking Glass (talk) 14:56, 10 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep I believe that the sources provided here and in the article combine to show that the character is clearly notable. QuicoleJR (talk) 21:33, 11 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: I still can't see a consensus here, mainly because a number of the Keep comments are verging on (or simply just are) WP:ITSNOTABLE. Since the last re-listing I can't see any smoking gun for sourcing, so we'll give it one more week.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Black Kite (talk) 10:06, 14 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Weak Keep While this isn't a great article, as others have shown, there are reliable sources about the character that could be used to improve it.--Gen. Quon_[Talk] 14:05, 14 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment The Japanese sources have been somewhat discussed, but I feel that the delete/merge !votes have not yet looked into/explained why the secondary sources listed earlier should not in combination establish notability, even if you exclude content dealing mostly with Epona's Song. The fact that secondary sources have been put forward in my view distinguishes the keep !votes from mere WP:ITSNOTABLE statements. Daranios (talk) 15:14, 14 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Passes GNG.★Trekker (talk) 18:36, 17 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.