Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Einar Kuusk (4th nomination)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. While there are a few keeps, they don't overcome the argument that there is a lack of significant coverage in reliable sources. Two don't even advance actual policy based reasons that this meets the criteria for inclusion. Consensus is to delete. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 23:58, 9 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Einar Kuusk[edit]

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It's been more than 2 months since the last AfD, so now let's try it again. There was a concern in Special:PermanentLink/769531452#Einar Kuusk by Anachronist that sources such as [1], [2], and [3] mentioned by ExRat in the second AfD do not establish notability because they are routine coverage or interviews only. I therefore agree that this person fails WP:NACTOR. GeoffreyT2000 (talk) 05:00, 23 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Actors and filmmakers-related deletion discussions. Zeke, the Mad Horrorist ^{(Speak quickly)} _{(Follow my trail)} 11:02, 23 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Internet-related deletion discussions. Zeke, the Mad Horrorist ^{(Speak quickly)} _{(Follow my trail)} 11:02, 23 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Estonia-related deletion discussions. Zeke, the Mad Horrorist ^{(Speak quickly)} _{(Follow my trail)} 11:02, 23 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Exactly how many times are you going to keep nominating this article? It seems you are going to keep nominating it until you reach your desired result. This, in my opinion, is now bordering on abuse of the nomination process. I have already pointed out that Kuusk is notable in Estonia and given links. That you claim the abovementioned links "do not establish notability because they are routine coverage or interviews only" perplexes me. They are not "routine" coverage. They specifically identify and discuss Kuusk's acting performances and endeavors in filmmaking. He has appeared as an actor in several mainstream Estonian films, worked as a primary director for at least one Estonian television miniseries and several independent Estonian motion picture films and has a rather popular career in Estonia as a comedian, among other endeavors. Additionally, there are twenty-eight articles either written directly about Kuusk, or mentioning Kuusk in Postimees (a major daily Estonian newspaper) between 2009 and 2016 (Here). That is not counting articles in one of Estonia's other major newspapers Õhtuleht: [4], [5], [6], and [7]. ExRat (talk) 20:05, 23 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
A couple things you need to understand. First, being merely "mentioned" doesn't count toward notability, no matter how many publications mention the subject. 28 trivial mentions has the same value as zero. Second, interviews are considered primary sources, not independent secondary sources, and also don't count toward notability. The prior AFD discussions focused on such sources rather than actual policy on the English Wikipedia. In that sense, re-nomination for deletion is appropriate until the discussion focuses on what inclusion criteria are met by this person, specifically in Wikipedia:Notability (people). ~Anachronist (talk) 03:32, 27 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment Except, the majority of those 28 articles are not "trivial mentions"; they are articles written directly about Kuusk and his occupation as an actor and filmmaker. Most are not merely passing, trivial mentions of the subject. ExRat (talk) 16:47, 27 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - looks like he easily clears GNG for actors.PohranicniStraze (talk) 23:37, 24 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Just being in such a profession or covered by media does not make anyone encyclopedic significance. There are thousands of such professionals worldwide. We are definitely not building a directory for these people here. [[User:Light2021Light2021 (talk) 17:28, 29 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Speedy keep - the nominator and Light2021 are recommending deletion in this case while admitting that the subject meets the GNG requirements; WP:NACTOR is also clearly met as well. I have trouble believing that this fourth attempt is an good faith nomination. Is there some equivalent to Salt for AfD nominations? Newimpartial (talk) 19:59, 29 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. There are no acceptable sources in the article. It's really that simple. Any number of minor notices do not make for notability. What I am unable to understand, is the previous keeps.He has never had a major role in a what can be shown to be a major film, and Interviews of the sort referred to here are promotional . DGG ( talk ) 22:22, 29 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

He starred in Ameerika suvi, which is clearly a notable Estonian film as documented in reliable sources (in Estonian). He directed and starred in The Most Beautiful Day which also meets notability requirements, and therefore he personally meets WP:NACTOR and WP:CREATIVE. The sourcing of the article is dreadful, but AfD is WP:NOTCLEANUP. I have a feeling there may also be WP:WORLDVIEW blinders operating against actors who do not work in English. Newimpartial (talk) 23:08, 29 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: I absolutely agree that the subject page is a mess that relies on bad sourcing (Twitter, etc.) However, I have listed very good sources above. Again, most of the newspapers articles I have listed are not minor notices. They are articles written directly about the subject and his work in film and television; only a few are interviews. If you like, I can easily translate. He has had roles in major films, he is a rather popular comedian (in Estonia), been a primary director for at least one Estonian television miniseries. I am finding the now quite routine nominations of this page for deletion extremely tedious, to be honest. ExRat (talk) 00:12, 30 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 05:28, 1 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Delete I am not convinced that the film he had a starring role in has actually been shown to be notable. Even if it was, that is the only film that might be notable that he has had a role in. Being the first to create a specific type of film in Estonia does not make one notable. Plus, if I understood a provided source correctly, Kuusk is in the US, trying to make it as a filmmaker there. The sources in the article clearly do not show notability. Reading the provided sources they are human insterest stories about someone who is trying to break into acting and film making. They are of the type to say "this person is an up and coming star we care about because he is an Estonian abroad." They are not of the type to suggest that he is actually notable at this time. He is not. He has not yet risen to the level of being a notable actor. Lots of sources get created that mention people in acting, but we do not intend to make a directory of all actors, so we have higher standards for inclusion of biographies of actors and even higher ones for filmmakers, and Kuusk does not meet these standards.John Pack Lambert (talk) 18:15, 1 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Why are Ameerika suvi and The Most Beautiful Day not both notable films, based on the Estonian-language media coverage? Newimpartial (talk) 18:17, 1 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: He is not in the United States "trying to make it as a filmmaker". He lives in Estonia and he already is a filmmaker, as well as an actor and director. The article you are referring to is about his 2013 comedy documentary I'm Going to Hollywood, a television miniseries (directed by Kuusk). Also, you claim to have read the provided sources; do you speak Estonian? Please read my comments above, which I have given the reasons why he is notable. Also, take into consideration that one editor is routinely nominating this article for deletion when he apparently doesn't achieve his desired outcome. ExRat (talk) 20:29, 1 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Delete -- it's easy to read Estonian language sources (thanks, Google Translate) and it's cleat that it's WP:TOOSOON for an article. The sources are mostly interviews or passing mentions, as in, from 2015:

" My name is ... Einar Kuusk, I'm an actor and director. Or, at least, I aim toward a film career... I've done so far videos for about eight years now, and I've recently completed my first short film." Etc.

We would not accept such an article for an English-speaking actor / director, and we should not do so for this subject. K.e.coffman (talk) 02:07, 8 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

You haven't really dealt with the notability of the two films he starred in, however. They should be enough to get him in on WP:NACTOR.Newimpartial (talk) 02:19, 8 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Delete sourcing from Estonia is not actually that terribly hard to come by, so I'm not convinced by the systemic bias claims. In terms of the NACTOR arguments: the film that appears to be his main claim to fame IMDB stated had a budget of 12,000 euro, which suggests that it is not in fact a major film unless it can be shown that it received significant critical acclaim for a short film, which I am not seeing. I am generally very open about the subject notability guidelines, especially when applied to non-English speaking regions, but I am simply not seeing enough to merit inclusion in this case. TonyBallioni (talk) 20:45, 8 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: "sourcing from Estonia is not actually that terribly hard to come by" . . . what? No. Sourcing from Estonia is just as valid and discerning as sourcing from the US or UK or other Anglophone nations. That phrase alone makes me wonder about your claims of being "generally very open about the subject notability guidelines, especially when applied to non-English speaking regions." As I have stated (several times now), most of the references/sources I have given are not merely "passing mentions" as people keep claiming. I also find it interesting, as an Estonian, how others are claiming they know who from my country is "notable". ExRat (talk) 02:00, 9 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.